Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

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RobTwin
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Re: status - Help ! - Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

Post by RobTwin »

morgan wrote: Tue Jul 16, 19 3:58 pm

....So within 6 mins she is at 220. TOOO hot. I am just about to get her moving to drive some cool when smoke starts to billow out. Uh-oh.
Pop bonnet - but - get this - it AINT the car - its the power steering pump. Fluid is boiling out from under the cap and this is the smoke.
So I still dont know what temp car will boil - but I do know there is a new problem I have not seen before...

So chaps - I throw it out there - boiling power steering pump ?

Edit - adjustment still possibility...( https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ub ... iling.html)
Funny you should say that...

When we were on the way back from American Speedfest last month, the only heavy traffic we got stuck in was joining the M25 at the last junction before the tunnel and after about 15 mins of not going very far, with the in-dash temp gauge getting ever closer to the right hand side, I noticed the steering was feeling very 'notchy' as i steered slowly to change lanes.
At the time i thought it felt like it did a few years ago when our power steering emptied itself, due to a leaking o-ring (or to be precise, an incorrect o-ring fitted by the people we got to rebuild it). Thankfully, this was only a short distance before joining the M25 and after picking up speed and the temp getting back to normal, the steering felt ok. I don't remember any smoke tho, like you had.
I checked the p/s level when we got home and it was still normal, so hadn't leaked. so I did think the high temps underhood had affected the p/s fluid.

The only plan we have at present to prevent this in the future is to improve the engine cooling which should help to reduce the overall under-hood temps (which can get unbearably high). I've just bought a Flowkooler water pump which we'll fit within the next few weeks. The shroud we've got could fit better (there's gaps where it fits around the rad so isn't as efficient as it should be) so we'll replace that if we can find a better one.

Cos we've got a 22" rad - which is deeper than a 26" - we can't fit a clutch fan in there. And as we're trying to stay 'stock appearing' I'd rather not have to fit an electric fan. So we're hoping the uprated water pump will help!

There is another tip we've been told might help tho - from Scott Koffel who built the engine:
"If you want to improve cooling, take the water neck off the housing, there is a big drilled bypass hole in the housing. If you tap that 1/4 npt and put a plug with a .125 drilled hole in it will help cooling."

I've read about this on other forums but we'll see if the new water pump helps first.
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morgan
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Re: status - Help ! - Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

Post by morgan »

Set her to 18 - runs to about 37 all in. We’ll see.
Its impossible to do the ‘turn until the increase slows’ ad shes a little choppy in the idle. Haha!

Ref overheat - mine leaked psf - boiled out.
I have made an adjustment so we’ll see if it helped.

Edit - decided to try vacuum now. Nope. Still doesn't like vacuum from either port. BANG ! When you blip. So issue has followed dizzy rather than carb. Dodgy vac can maybe. Not bothered- never worked anyway. Just trivia.
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morgan
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Re: status - Help ! - Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

Post by morgan »

OK, you've all earned some pictures. Fans of 'Redneck engineering' you are in for a treat.

So - throttle cable. With the best will in the world the throttle cable from the 50 years ago small block just didnt reach. I lashed it so it would run but it was a stretch. Ordered a generic to replace it (or rather bought a generic as it was in stock) - looks like a lokar - happy days. (or so I thought).

What a piece of junk. It has no structural integrity and camp resist compression. So the first one I trimmed, fitted, fettled, got it nice. First time I pressed my foot on the cable and it just 'crimped'. Never seen anything like it - result, slack cable, 1/4 throttle. grrr. I managed to get it straight enough to work and then the 'carb joiner' popped off. (balljoint thing). On investigation the cable only went as far as the grub screw (not beyond) so there was nothing to hold it. (see diagram).
So I assumed it was a dud, got another one, gave it more length, drilled the grub-scrww-cable-end so it went all the way on. Happy days. Then I pressed the throttle. Crimp. See photo. Cable simply 'compresses'. It might as well be made of cheese.

So (and here is the redneck bit). I've got the remains of two throttle cables. Two lots of all the hardware. A length of cable which would do it but even if I crimp ends on it would prob collapse again. It occurs to me if I can 'force' the cable to follow a route it wont crimp. So I decided to take a piece of 10mm copper tube, trim a length of braided cable shield long enough, and use the copper pipe to 'hold' the new cable in place. Here are the results - and its magnificent. As a result it follows a set route, doesnt catch or bind and most importantly WORKS. Coupled with the freshly drilled balljoint I can have some confidence.

What I actually neeed of course is the 'real' mopar cable (or the mancini replica) but I need this running in a week - I am out of ordering time. This'll do it...

So - happy days. I know its unorthadox, but its only silly if it doesnt work !
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Roger S
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Re: status - Help ! - Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

Post by Roger S »

Order the combined Lokar throttle & kick down, got one on my 440 and works a treat. Some don't like the kick down cable, but mine works as it should now I have adjusted it, you must follow the set up instructions to the letter ! I fitted an added a return spring to the gearbox valve lever as recommended by Blue or Dave can't remember who sorry!

Rog
Started with an MGB in 2004, then built a Cobra Rep with a Chevy 383,next a Chevy Bel air with a Big Block 454 and now lastly maybe ! my 68 Charger 440 RT always work to do.
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Super Sloth
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Re: status - Help ! - Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

Post by Super Sloth »

Agree with Roger (Nice to catch up on saturday btw!). I've just set up the kickdown linkage on mine and it took me the best part of 2 hours to get it setup in the ballpark as per the instructions and then subsequently adjusted to suit when I upgraded to a 4bbl. It's quite the faff.
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autofetish
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Re: Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

Post by autofetish »

I did exactly the same thing years ago !

Also you can cut open a cable terminal block and take out the brass bit for some added cable security on both sides.

One thing to note is ensure your engine earth is in very good condition or the copper tube will glow when you crank and crank as it such a good conductor.... been there burnt foot


Ps. Dave has a lokal setup for sale in forsale section and it’s the way
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morgan
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Re: Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

Post by morgan »

Yes, I popped a couple of those connectors in the mobile toolkit...
Kickown is a lokar. Works now I have re-adjusted.

So, overheating being worked on. The only real update today is that I took her out with 17-18 initial.
No pinking, starts ok. 4 restarts, but overran on one of them. Still heats up real fast but rock steady once moving. High hopes for better draw fan helping.

The really big news, REALLY big is that I punched it for the first time. (science; testing kickdown).
HOLY COW. This thing GOES. Quite alarming actually...

More updates as I continue to cure gremlins. Needs someone with a roller to set the carb up really, if its lean it'll cause all this heat. Onward...
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mygasser
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Re: Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

Post by mygasser »

these guys come highly recommended, good with carbs and keep jets etc in stock. http://www.atspeedracing.co.uk/
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morgan
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Re: Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

Post by morgan »

Ok. Ta.

Goes well now, but still got that irritating overrun sometimes. :-k
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Dave999
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Re: Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

Post by Dave999 »

lean at speed will make it hot

rich at idle will make it hot
poor distribution in general will have some cylinders right on the button some lean some rich.. that also makes it hot

my hemi 6 ran with the temp gauge at 2/3 with a standard or long Ram manifold 2 long runners to short runners and 2 medium runners to a central carb

put it on webers with identical runners to each cylinder and it runs at 1/3 on the gauge...

did you stay with same radiator? did you get a new cap? what i'm getting at is does the cap seal when under pressure.
bend the tabs up a bit. it should be hard work to get it on and locked
if it gets hot but doesn't overheat the cap vents invisible water vapour not steam you may not see evidence of that venting

There are Two different depths of spring and seal for the water spout on mopar radiators long spout short spring gives results that you have observed. the cap fits but doesn't seal all the time it needs to.

can you see the coolant level with the bottom of the spout when cold or has some of it disappeared.
is there beige (oil), pink (transfluild) or blue tinged mayo (grott/oil and standard blue coolant) in there?

has the oil level in the sump gone up? too rich at idle = bore wash = oil level rises, but you would be fouling up plugs....

Its a race engine, did it come with balancer and pulleys? if it did are they the same size as your originals? street driving needs original drive ratio to get the best from the pump. If the motor now operates at its best 1000 -2000 rpm higher than stock and you are geared to take advantage then you need different sized pulleys to slow down the pump but for street on the same street gears the pump needs to run standard speed.

does it have a thermostat in? as a minimum it needs a thermostat body with the middle cut out. the pump needs to be loaded to avoid cavitation and erosion of the pump and block or back plate at higher RPM and cruising at 70. A thermostat body will do this. but I imagine one doesn't necessarily want a pump loaded up, in a drag race engine, why make the water pump stiffer to turn etc. So given its origins did a thermostat get fitted?


ideally you need a 195 thermostat, complete and working , to modulate the flow properly.... only lower the stat temperature if you have to,
pointless having a functioning thermostat if its open all the time. its not then controlling flow its just acting much like a thermostat with the middle cut out.

aim is to keep the water in the radiator for long enough to cool down a bit even at idle.

Other things
water pump? does it have the correct back plate and gasket (its position in-out of the front of the block can have an impact) is it a cast iron impeller or a pressed steel one? Both work but the cast iron one would be original and 50 years old and if subjected to cavitation the impeller erodes away getting less and less effective. the steel ones are new ish and can suffer the same way but are a totally different design for the fins


Dave
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Blue
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Re: Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

Post by Blue »

I disagree on the thermostat Dave, 180 is better suited to old V8’s. If everything is as it should be that’s the temp it will run at most of the time. I like to use Mr gasket high flow thermostats as they have a great big hole in them when open. My thinking is it will deal with temperature change much quicker than a conventional stat can.
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morgan
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Re: Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

Post by morgan »

Wowzer Dave - I'll try answer that lot ! :)

Stat is a 180 in a 'stock' 440B/RB water pump, nearside exit. Radiator is a Champion Ally rated to 600hp. 26" 4 or 5 core. Its man enough. SO car runs real nice. Holds steady as a rock at 184 with even minor airflow.
When idling (which is a bit stinky) car will warm up quick. 6 mins took me to 220 and thats when the PSF boiled up (different issue, but my point is it rose 35deg in 6 mins). I need more airflow at idle as a minimum. Fan is a fixed 3rd party from my old small block. 17" but clearly not up to it. Shroud is on but sub optimal.

So I think the path is -
- Optimise shroud as best I can - it aint ideal as there is a 5" offset between rad centre and engine centre.
- Fit more manly fan - BB viscous option on the way.
- Sort timing once and for all (at the moment its 18deg init. Engine seems happy.
- Get someone to stick a probe up it and sort carb crews. (or at least verify they are ok).

She really is nearly there. Runs like a scalded gazelle. But niggles... Maybe I am expecting too much of a race engine - its happy on song, just not when pottering :)


PS - Blue - I will run her over sometime and check your kettle still works. Not forgotten. I just want to be clear of tinkering first. :)
Last edited by morgan on Fri Jul 19, 19 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

Post by sublimemike »

If all else fails on the cooling , Steve (Al Killer -used to be on here ) and I went for the Mercedes fan and controller that steps the fan speed up as the engine gets hotter. Blue knows about them, there are posts on here some where - they really shift some air - draws up to 50 amp!! just make sure your alternator and cable are up to the job. I feel your pain.
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Dave999
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Re: Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

Post by Dave999 »

ahh will keep that in the old memory bank big block 180 stat....
I can't and shouldn't apply hemi 6 to everything :)

either way for street you want one that works the water can move too fast or too slow for optimal cooling
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morgan
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Re: Morgans 68 Charger. Engine #3...

Post by morgan »

Drove it back in the rain today. Traction not its strong point :)
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