Electric Cars and the future

Post by **MattH** » Wed Sep 20, 17 10:07 am

Electric power was mentioned in the MOT thread and I thought it worth a thread of its own as I found out lots about this recently.

I went to a 2 day expo at Millbrook which about CENEX LCV which is Low Carbon Vehicles.

My niave view was that other than weird beards with the odd Prius that electric is way off, and buses and trucks will need deisel for ages.
How wrong was I!!

First vehicle I saw on arrival was a fully electric double decker bus, not a prototype but a bus that has been built to drive around York.
Then I saw a quite normal looking 9 year old dust cart, Mercedes Econic, which has just been converted to full electric and will be driving around Greenwich later this year.

We got to drive a fully electric Iveco daily 3.5 tonner, and there were various other full electric vehicles, including a solar powered bus, Ford Transit, Suzuki Bergmann motorcycles (soon to be on trial with the Metropolitan Police).

What surprised me most is that this technology is here now, and although the cost is high, it will come down.

One manufacturer does a conversion on exisiting truck chassis, and builds a 7.5 or 10 tonne truck, which is fully electric, but has a range extender, which is basically a 1.6 diesel Ford focus engine which purely charges the batteries, it does not direct drive.
It seems a bit futuristic, but he said he has already sold 15 to UPS this year, DHL and interested and he anticipated 200 next year.
for the big companies, operating multi drop in big cities this makes alot of sense, no emissions issues, minimal fuel costs and so on.

This was a real eye opener for me, the technology is here now, and hybrids are not what they were 3 years ago. Blue's suggestion of a big swing to electric vehicles in 5 years in not unrealistic for the new fleet buyers. The big change seems to be the engines just charging the batteries, rather than taking over from the motors.
i dont think we yet have the Mad Max scenario of road wars for the fuel, but things are changing and FAST.

Even more reason to use our cars and enjoy them now. I don't think we are near to a situation where petrol will be legislated against, it will by natural wastage become less used, as are steam engines.

Blue · Post by **Blue** » Wed Sep 20, 17 11:14 am

Yep, the rate of change will be swift and it has already started with the likes of the company I work for, all future purchases are to be electric or hybrid where suitable vehicles exsist.

I don't see petrol being legislated against any time soon but I can see a situation in about 10 years time when it won't be very convenient to get hold of the stuff. I hope I'm wrong on that but I'll be 70 by then and probably beyond caring!

MilesnMiles · Post by **MilesnMiles** » Wed Sep 20, 17 12:59 pm

Interesting stuff, I've been thinking for a while that whilst our car are fetching premium rates currently, thee will be a point here electric cars become viable and even a new norm and old cars will lose value until they become obsolete.

Like dinosaurs

Blue · Post by **Blue** » Wed Sep 20, 17 1:17 pm

I think there will always be a following for old cars but it will become much more niche. What I think will happen is as electric takes over conventionally fuelled modern cars will very quickly see their value plumment as demand for them dries up.

Dave81 · Post by **Dave81** » Wed Sep 20, 17 1:59 pm

Blue wrote:I think there will always be a following for old cars but it will become much more niche. What I think will happen is as electric takes over conventionally fuelled modern cars will very quickly see their value plumment as demand for them dries up.

Good second hand market values for modern Hemi/SRT cars the that id like as a daily........Not so good if you own one though.

latil · Post by **latil** » Wed Sep 20, 17 2:46 pm

Electric,for the average man is currently a no no. Range is far too limited and charging times much too long.
My view of the problem is the battery system itself. Every brand has a different configuration of battery. There needs to be a standard battery pack that is quickly removable and replaced with a charged pack. Service station/garages would become battery exchange places where the motorist pulls up at the equivalent of the pump,removes his battery pack and puts in a charged unit.

Do you buy a mopar and can only mopar fuel? No,of course not,so why is every electric vehicle different? I can get AA batteries for my torch almost anywhere,I don't have to get specific batteries for that brand of torch.
So to be a real success electric cars need a universal battery system that can be changed when flat just like refilling an empty tank.

Slowhand · Post by **Slowhand** » Wed Sep 20, 17 3:22 pm

I see a British Gas van in Ware most mornings on my station run - it appears to be a Nissan Leaf (leccy) car based small van. Only ever seen one. Is it on trial or part of a new fleet I wonder?

A customer turned up the other day in a Tesla and we were chatting about it - seems it takes half an hour to charge at motorway "Superchargers" and costs the owner NOTHING. With 7 year warranty and 0-60 in 2.28 seconds it sounds viable but I wonder what happens when its out of warranty and the batteries will no longer take a charge? Do you then scrap a Â£80 to Â£100k car?

latil · Post by **latil** » Wed Sep 20, 17 3:34 pm

Battery pack for a Tesla is around Â£40K

Nissan do an electric van,around 90 miles fully charged empty without lights/wipers etc on. Full load with lights etc on brings it down to around 40 miles on a charge. What the hell is the point of it.

rossk · Post by **rossk** » Wed Sep 20, 17 8:34 pm

Electric/hybrid has been around for many years, main issue has always been gaining government buy in to then support the infrastructure throughout the U.K. Including charging stations etc.

I work for a Toyota dealer and Toyota spend a astronomical amount of money on research & development per day of which most is hybrid technology or full battery. Diesel has minimal investment and in fact most new Toyota diesels actually have BMW engines in them.

Battery range will increase and charging times will decrease and business and fleet drivers will naturally due to cost gravitate to these vehicles. Diesel is on its way out but I feel petrol will always be, simply due to the fact that consumer demand will always remain and will out weight environmental regulations particularly if the usual boys club government officials remain in power as they all have old classic cars hidden away, isn't that why the tax exemption came into play?

Another thing to consider is hydrogen, Toyota already have the mirai (Japanese for future) that is an amazing bit of kit that runs on hydrogen and kicks out water out of the back that is so clean you can drink it! There are already a few in the U.K. Being tested by the government and larger companies, however again the infrastructure is not in place to support it with I believe only 2 or 3 filling stations in the U.K.

latil · Post by **latil** » Wed Sep 20, 17 8:50 pm

Yes,I think the hydrogen fuel cell is the future. 5 kg fuel load is good for around 250-300 miles. There is a refill point at Cobham M25

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/hy ... -fuel-cell

Looks promising too.

lough3969 · Post by **lough3969** » Wed Sep 20, 17 9:08 pm

Some clever sos and so's are converting classic cars to electric.... nor sure it will really fit with our gas guzzling fire breathing beasts but will certainly suit many cruisers and other classics... the Porsche conversions are apparently amazing!
Check these links out....

http://www.zelectricmotors.com

https://www.momentmotors.com

cadboy · Post by **cadboy** » Thu Sep 21, 17 7:00 am

I remember a few years back when Chevrolet came out with the VOLT; the first electric drive car with a 1.2 engine to charge batteries, it was the one.

Well I found out more about it and it was very tempting as a daily runner.
But the price for its sister AMPER it was shocking over 30K

Electric cars are great and the future but charging and battery life and cost of new cars needs to be sorted before general public like me can even consider buying one.

A friend just had the new Tesla SUV for 120K and it is a lovely thing but a 7 year battery life only and 8 to 10 hour charging on standard home socket is a killer.

So I believe if anyone can come up with a quicker charging and better battery life then it will be the same as our mobile phones and its battery life, a killer!!!!!!!!!!!!

A problem in physics has always been how to store energy and not how to make it!!

Dave81 · Post by **Dave81** » Thu Sep 21, 17 1:01 pm

Be interesting to see what happens to electricity prices when everyone eventually goes electric.

I think the range will increase drastically when the next generation of cars comes through...........would be even better when they include energy recover systems and solar body panels!!

Less pressure on the current electricity generation infrastructure and the greenest form of power to boot!!

Mossy68 · Post by **Mossy68** » Thu Sep 21, 17 10:20 pm

Electric vehicles .........
The reason I drive a V8 ( V10 at present ) daily !!
Man it's going to be a quiet world ..........

Post by **MattH** » Fri Sep 22, 17 8:28 am

Ross, the Toyota Mirias were on display at Millbrook. The hydrogen cell was another part of the exhibition. There was even a mobile hydrogen fuel delivery truck that was there, mainly as a support vehicle for exhibitions, but could double as a mobile fuel station.

Steve's point is very valid about common battery packs. That would be a breakthrough but needs manufacturers to work together. They may have to with regards to regulations anyway so it is possible.

And yes they are VERY quiet, the amount of people nearly knocked over was immense as these things just glide around, but there is a company there who make a vehicle sounder which is intelligent and produces sound in the right place to warn of approaching electric vehicles.

They do think of anything these days, where they may be a market.