Engine build help 318

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TIB3300
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Engine build help 318

Post by TIB3300 »

Evening mop'ees
Looking for some advice and help :thumbright:

Well it looks like I will be building an engine a sooner that anticipated. I have two 318s one dodge one Chrysler, am going to strip both engines to build one engine.

Apart from damage and bore wear , what else should I look out for on the block? I have built engines before but never a V8 mopar
Thanks

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DaveB
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Re: Engine build help 318

Post by DaveB »

Theres a million answers to your question, are you doing a bodge job, or a proper rebuild? Its all down to your budget, and performance expectations.

TIB3300
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Re: Engine build help 318

Post by TIB3300 »

DaveB wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 20 5:51 pm
Theres a million answers to your question, are you doing a bodge job, or a proper rebuild? Its all down to your budget, and performance expectations.
Just a few suggestions of what to look out for would be good, not sure what a bodge job is?
But looking to build a usable stock motor for a year or so, until I build eather a 318 stroked or a 360 stroked .

Do you have any suggestions Dave? :thumbright:

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DaveB
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Re: Engine build help 318

Post by DaveB »

Bodge job is just putting a load of old parts together,just adding rings,bearings and gaskets
Rebuilt is with new pistons,rings,cam and lifters,bearings,gasket,valves,springs,locks etc,with rebore,crank grind,balancing etc
Proper rebuild,is all of the above with quality parts,forged pistons,good rods,stainless valves etc,block decked and squared etc
1st option £300-£400
2nd option £3000-£4000
3rd option £6000 plus
add labour,,,,your time
hope this helps :thumbright:

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Pete
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Re: Engine build help 318

Post by Pete »

I completely agree, Dave.

Kenny reckoned it took 100 hours to properly strip, inspect, measure and build a quality engine.

Not what most people want to hear.....

The Architecture on American engines is relatively simple, but the tolerances are pretty tight and you need to measure and check everything - usually at least twice!
Pete Wiseman; Cambridge.

Mopar by the grace of God

sebspeed
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Re: Engine build help 318

Post by sebspeed »

check out RockAuto in the states.great prices and great service.

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Blue
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Re: Engine build help 318

Post by Blue »

Get yourself a small block Mopar rebuild book, most everything you need to know will be in there. If you've rebuilt engines before you won't be in for much of a surprise, these are simple engines that don't require much in the way of specialist tools.
"Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine"

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Dave999
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Re: Engine build help 318

Post by Dave999 »

can't say if any of this is useful i have little experience with big cast iron engines or even engines cooled with water....
but i did screw my own rebuild up in minor ways a number of times before achieving reasonable success, so this is just based on what i found

look out for mis matched parts... rods repurposed pistons etc
look out for main caps that are stretched and just fall out of their register, front one... they should need a soft mallet tap and a bit of wiggling to get them out.
look at rear main seal surface of crank..if its smooth use a rubber seal if it has a good visible knurl (it won't) you probably need to consider a rope seal. rope seal expensive Gland packing cheap, much the same stuff just work out the meters/ second shaft speed rating before purchase based on 6000 rpm

look out for loose pickup tube. or bent pickup for the oil pump, due to thumped in sump
look out for sharp wafer thin drive cogs
binding oil pump relief valve..
check dipstick tube is tight
don;'t trust TDC on balancer check it
original crank journals had small radius to each side, a slight under cut, reground might not unless you ask. make sure you check the side clearances. With no little radius you might need to massage the sides of the bearings to leave a space for the oil to get out ..
the squirters on the rods all face 1 way, obvious from cap and rod numbering but... its an easy check

only change the cam bearings if you really really have to... originals were fitted and honed/aligned in the block.
you will need a timing set, may as well get a proper roller chain one romac do a good one with a German IWIS chain and a torrington bearing on the back of the cam sprocket
nylon cam button
oil slinger goes in with the concave facing the seal, other way round it just damages the chain

look out for stuff that has been copper or hard chrome plated. big ends small ends, valve stems etc was once used to adjust clearances , pointless waste of cash these days, bodge bodge bodge to get an engine sold as good when really its made from worn out parts.

look out for oil gallery plugs...make sure you know all of them, and make sure they are wound back in just far enough.. wind em in too far an you can reduce the bore of the corner in the gallery that they usually occupy.

its well worth using brass core plugs and the kit may well not have the one that fits at the back of the cam. so don't take that one out. its oily so won't rust

remember block decking and head skimming will eventually put you in a position where you need work to the manifold faces to get it to fit.
and the dowel holes need to be drilled deeper by the amount you removed ,block head wise.

buy the best hydraulic lifters you can afford (Johnson Hi-Lift). check their fit in the lifter bore check they can rotate easily. oiled they should slide through bore slowly and not bind and not just fall out

paint a line on each push rod from head to rocker so you can run engine with tins off and see the pushrods turning with the lifter if pushrod doesn't turn then lifter isn't turning and going further will wipe cam and lifter


Buy a flex hone, if you end up using 2 sets of rings it will be handy :)

don't put the second ring on upside down like i did...
if you use adjustable rockers get pushrods made so that the adjuster has 99% of its thread used, adjusters sticking a long way out snap, they have cut rather than rolled threads so the stresses get to them if they have little support...
and if too far out holes for oiling do not line up so the pushrod/rocker pressure point does not get lubrication

the original bolts for the oil pan and rocker tins, timing cover etc are the best, they have a lead section before the thread to help get them started
worth sticking them in rust remover and using again. new stock looks shiny and nice but you will curse them if you ever need to remove and replace the sump or timing cover in situe



ARP main studs are a nice thing but don't feel compelled to get them for a standard build

if you change the bolt in the rods you will need to get the rods resized and checked. best just check em with plastigauge first Chrysler bolts ok, check they are all the same length

get someone with a piston pin fitting heater thingo to put the pistons on the rods if yours are press fit its just easier

dunno how your oil pump works but get the best quality drive, if yours needs replacing. And its worth just checking its all in tolerance and doesn't spend too much time trying to compress UNcompressible oil. inlet window and outlet window should close and open simultaneously, if they don't you just load up the pump and drive trying to compress oil...which can't be done, just wastes power, stresses the pump and drive and causes the drive gears to wear to razor sharp thin shadow of their former selves. you can port a pump and not just at the point where it clamps to the block....
pack it with Vaseline (cheap) or assembly lube (not as cheap). you need it to be a good sucker for start up, the grease lets you suck the air through the pickup till oil arrives....

flywheel boss and mounting face should be spotless. any rust or muck or oil stops the necessary microwelding/friction that keeps it from slicing through the dowel?? if you have one, and bolts. any chafing back and forth and the flywheel or clutch or bits of bellhousing will join you in the cabin at some point

original Chrysler flywheel or flex plate bolts do the job fine, but are not indestructible

if you use locktite keep it on threads 1/2 way up thread, use the weaker stuff, you might want to take it off again
bolt on flywheel with 4 bolts equally spaced first. locktight and torque the other 4 , then remove and loktite and torque the original 4 the aim is to make sure no loktite gets between flyhweel and flange. if it does the flyhweel will not be mounted as well as it could be and may come loose

cab't think of anything else

but noting to stop you doing a standard ish rebuild and using a lot of your standard stuff


gland packing
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gland-packin ... 0160100508


spendy pistons
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wiseco-forge ... 2704787688


i found these pistons/rings to be excellent value the thin oil expander ring set for them are usually quite expensive
$111 ring set and $89 worth of pistons :)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chrysler-Dod ... 1825630273

but obviously you need to know what over size you need first

they are magnum pistons, they fit but you need to check that the valves don't hit them. they are taller and have no valve reliefs cut. true flat top for about 10.5:1 static CR i.e potentially a CR hike of some margin

dave
David Gray. This year i am mainly In Twickenham, sometimes in Watford, often between the two but only between the hours of 07:00 -09:00 and 17:30-19:00

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Dave999
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Re: Engine build help 318

Post by Dave999 »

PS its very easy to spend money on stuff you don't actually need
my current motor is a case in point, i tried to build it in a high end way but probably only got 75% out of my investment.
with hindsight i didn't know what i was doing (potentially still, don't) and i was swayed by the throw it all away and replace with aftermarket parts idea prevalent in the US, forgetting of course that Chrysler put in a bit of time and effort to make sure it all worked ok in the first place

1) you don't need hardened seats on the inlets
2) you probably don't need hardened seats on the exhaust if you use stainless valves
3) crazy race valves from ferrea or someone similar have their place but it was overkill for what i did
4) i didn't need a cometic gasket (the most expensive gasket in the world by the time it landed in the Uk)
5) £200 on chevy rockers would have been better value for money than the race set i used (although i got them second hand and rebuilt them)

i won't make the same mistakes again..

In general if you want to build a race big block the only bit you end up using is the block.... and we are not all doing that, you don't have to subscribe to the views of those that are..but its very very easy to.. us chaps with small motors do not need to as our aims are different.

the mopar world says to me throw away the 6 cylinder and buy a 360.... well i'm not doing that either

if you want to build a small motor that punches above its weight. blue printed or slightly tweaked standard style parts with raised CR better induction and exhaust is the way to go. remove that production line wrong end of the tolerance range aspect .

better carburation
a slightly wilder camshaft in respect to duration perhaps advanced slightly to avoid boggy low rpm

you'd be onto a good thing

nice pistons, nice cam n lifters, timing set decent springs carb and headers its a 5.2 litre in a car that was designed for 2 its gonna go, even if only in a striaght line :)



Dave
David Gray. This year i am mainly In Twickenham, sometimes in Watford, often between the two but only between the hours of 07:00 -09:00 and 17:30-19:00

TIB3300
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Re: Engine build help 318

Post by TIB3300 »

DaveB wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 20 6:52 pm
Bodge job is just putting a load of old parts together,just adding rings,bearings and gaskets
Rebuilt is with new pistons,rings,cam and lifters,bearings,gasket,valves,springs,locks etc,with rebore,crank grind,balancing etc
Proper rebuild,is all of the above with quality parts,forged pistons,good rods,stainless valves etc,block decked and squared etc
1st option £300-£400
2nd option £3000-£4000
3rd option £6000 plus
add labour,,,,your time
hope this helps :thumbright:
Thanks Mr :thumbright:
I think for this time, its going to be "Bodge job" ;) I will do what's necessary to have a usable motor.

I will be building another motor, in the £3.000 range, I dont want lots of power and its going in a toy. Not a 25K mopar :thumbright:

TIB3300
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Re: Engine build help 318

Post by TIB3300 »

Pete wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 20 8:02 pm
I completely agree, Dave.

Kenny reckoned it took 100 hours to properly strip, inspect, measure and build a quality engine.

Not what most people want to hear.....

The Architecture on American engines is relatively simple, but the tolerances are pretty tight and you need to measure and check everything - usually at least twice!
:thumbright:

TIB3300
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Re: Engine build help 318

Post by TIB3300 »

sebspeed wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 20 8:11 pm
check out RockAuto in the states.great prices and great service.
Yes, already spending monthly with them :lol:

TIB3300
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Re: Engine build help 318

Post by TIB3300 »

Blue wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 20 8:56 am
Get yourself a small block Mopar rebuild book, most everything you need to know will be in there. If you've rebuilt engines before you won't be in for much of a surprise, these are simple engines that don't require much in the way of specialist tools.
:read2: :thumbright:

TIB3300
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Re: Engine build help 318

Post by TIB3300 »

Dave999 wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 20 12:14 pm
can't say if any of this is useful i have little experience with big cast iron engines or even engines cooled with water....
margin

dave
Thanks Dave
I do look forward to your replies, I get a coffee ready and try and digest you wise words :thumbright:

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Dave999
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Re: Engine build help 318

Post by Dave999 »

Larry shepards small block book is pretty good... covers all of them.

but its written in Larry shepherds language. which is English imbued with 1050 years working for Chrysler with access to everything he needs for free.... and references parts that even when the book was written were no longer carried by mopar performance...


you can almost here him spitting the words Daimler Chrysler in the updated versions that have had the words MOPAR and Chrysler "find and Replaced" with "Daimler Chrylser"

however it has everything you will need to do a good job, written by an old man, indeed a legend, who learned the trade doing it for the racers of the 60s and 70s



i have read it from cover to cover a number of times (i'm just a bit odd like that) as my own motor was one of the first experiments in the LA programme. i.e 1965 "Hey lets make a light weight block using fancy new casting techniques" , we'll do a slant replacement and a A series poly engine replacement and it will be great. a few years pass and suddenly OOPs nobody wants the six cylinder what a waste of money, Hey, lets give it to the aussies, if its rubbish there will be no impact on sales and Chrysler's reputation here in the US etc etc

a lot of it is relevant to me with an aussie 6

Dave
David Gray. This year i am mainly In Twickenham, sometimes in Watford, often between the two but only between the hours of 07:00 -09:00 and 17:30-19:00

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