How hard can it be?

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Stu Twin
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How hard can it be?

Post by Stu Twin »

Thought I'd fit a new starter motor on the Dodge as it's been turning over slowly recently. Initially I put that down to the old red top battery but as it shows 12.8v after being on 'smart charge', I thought maybe the starter may be past it's best, it's been on the car since '04 at least. Had an OEM style one in stock, presumably 'remanufactured' and looked like it hadn't been on a car (obtained from a member).
Got it fitted (quite easy without headers!) and turned the key expecting to hear a much quicker whirring of the starter. But just got one really slow 'ruuurrr' and then nothing on the 2nd turn of the key. Not even a click.
Noticed a bit of an electrical smell so disconnected the battery straight away. Everything looked ok harness-wise so with a bit of trepidation screwed the battery disconnect knob back in and immediately got a bit of smoke or fumes coming out the top of one of the battery caps. Thought i'd knackered the battery, it now read about 4v.
Battery out of the car, back on charge, back up to 12.8v so presumed ok.
Putting a meter across the 2 terminals of the starter while still fitted (battery disconnected), there was continuity. Which i presume is not right.
I decided to refit the old starter just to narrow things down and all i got was a click click from (presumably) the relay. Must've knackered the relay i thought, so ordered up a new mini starter and relay. Which i probably should have done in the 1st place!
So got the new mini starter fitted (why do they put the terminals so close to the block?) and new relay fitted.
Gingerly fitted the battery disconnect knob, no strange noises etc so gave it a whirl....

Just the dreaded click click again. Now as i was sat in the car I'm not sure if it's the relay clicking or the starter, so not sure really which bit ain't working? If there was an internal fault with the recon starter what could it have fried?
I've put all the wires back where they came from.
How's best to check if I've killed something? I've got a meter (and very little knowledge).
:D
:help:

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RobTwin
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Re: How hard can it be?

Post by RobTwin »

Stu Twin wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 20 12:31 am
I've got a meter (and very little knowledge).
:D
:help:
Same here... except I don't even have a meter :oops:
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Derek
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Re: How hard can it be?

Post by Derek »

Try another battery just to eliminate it, then try the starter off the car with a battery using some jump leads.
Are we there yet dad ..... 10 to the gallon but worth it.

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morgan
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Re: How hard can it be?

Post by morgan »

Well the good news is that a) You have more than one of everything so chasing it out should be OK and b) no headers. I *hate* doing starter motors on mine - such a pain. And those posts 2mm from the block ! Whats that about mini-starter ??? Arghhh !!! So I know exactly what you mean.

My advice would be
a) Do what Derek says, make sure thing turns when no other complications in the way. Motor+battery. (although low battery may still turn it off car)
b) The Solenoid can be 'tricked' from under the bonnet by poking a screwdriver between the terminals of the relay (its how I have to turn the engine over when just me) - the advantage here is that you can see exactly what is going on - which you cant do from the drivers seat. So you can tell if the 'click' is the solenoid engaging.
c) You should also be able to get a reading off the starter relay to make sure its supplying the right bits when you turn the key (push the button in your case ?)

Not sure it can be much else - unlikely to be wire melty.
Assume you've tried jumping it ?
"Cum homine de cane debeo congredi." Woof.

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Pete
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Re: How hard can it be?

Post by Pete »

We had that with Roydons Dart.

Battery leads (from the trunk) were warm (actually they were HOT!!!).

I disconnected them and check the Starter motor and it had a dead short between Terminal and case (internally).

Weirdly enough it cleared and then subsequently worked Ok. Issues with the Solenoid I guess - stuck after probably being in storage years and then worked Ok when freed off, but not what I would expect.

I test EVERY starter motor with Jump leads before I install now....
Pete Wiseman; Cambridge.

Mopar by the grace of God

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Dave999
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Re: How hard can it be?

Post by Dave999 »

sounds like the earth straps need a clean

the one from the mount to the body take off totally shine up the ends
clean up the mountings and slap it with Vasaline


solenoid can cause similar if its contact are all burned up...


can i suggest any mini starter denso branded or clone, off any 318 dodge truck all the way to the mid 1990s will do the job....

they were hi torque before anyone added a label saying hi torque so you don't need one with a label at 3 times the price

any nappa or rockauto rebuilt will do

you could pay for this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STARTER-FITS ... 2005437111

or

like i did
pay for this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mopar-Chrysl ... 0551888488

(or similar this geezer has stopped shipping to UK)

its a V8 plenty of opportunity in 1 rotation to fire and start...easier than a 4 or 6



Dave
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Stu Twin
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Re: How hard can it be?

Post by Stu Twin »

Thanks guys.
I'll check all connections are clean etc but I'm usually quite careful about that.
I will try another battery just in case the 12.8v wasn't doing the job. Just happen to have one in a car about 7 feet away.
Then will try starter out of the car. Question - Just a jump lead on each starter terminal or does one go on the body of the starter?

Both starter and solenoid are new.
Starter = https://www.proformparts.com/product-de ... v8-engines
says '100% new parts' on the box.
Solenoid is 'Standard brand' admittedly, probably from china but new never the less.

I did try the screwdriver trick between the solenoid contacts but it just sparked instead of turning the starter. Not what I was expecting.
I could put the old solenoid back on, or there's always the spare solenoid i've got for the Plymouth. Same connections just different mounting.

I'm hoping that the starter leads aren't touching each other or the engine block, it's so tight down there it's difficult to see. Though if they were touching something they shouldn't I presume there'd be funny noises as soon as I turn the key to IGN?

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Pete
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Re: How hard can it be?

Post by Pete »

If that Starter can crank a 15:1 motor then I am a Dutchman...

Then again it may do it once....
Pete Wiseman; Cambridge.

Mopar by the grace of God

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RobTwin
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Re: How hard can it be?

Post by RobTwin »

Pete wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 20 1:35 pm
If that Starter can crank a 15:1 motor then I am a Dutchman...

Then again it may do it once....
10.5 :1 would do for us mere mortals :-k
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Dave999
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Re: How hard can it be?

Post by Dave999 »

looks much like standard starter

i found fitting the wires first then fitting the starter worked ok. allowed me to heat shrink the bits i wanted to

i am dealing with a 6 cylinder through starter up at the 2 o'clock position when check from front of car looking back

727 position is lower i think.

i mentioned earth leads because something isn't letting the current flow... stuff is getting hot and the starter is just clicking

places that add resistance

1) the junction between positive post and its clamp
2) the junction between the positive clamp and its wire
3) the junction at the stud on the starter solenoid (all wires)
4) the stud at the starter
5) the connection between starter body and the bellhousing
6) the connection between the motor and chassis
7) the connection between chassis and battery negative
8) connection between battery negative wire and the clamp
9) connection between clamp and battery negative post

with multimeter set to resistance and everything off there should be negligible resistance at each junction

the other way to measure is with it set to volts 20 DC and you measure between 2 places 1 side of a junction to the other while the key is turned to start. voltage across a junction should be pretty much zero. if you measure a voltage it means that the junction is using power up, getting hot and it shouldn't be

OR you genuinely do have a starter for a 15:1 CR engine, it consumes way more current than the orginal and your battery to starter cables are too thin, by pass them individually with a jump lead and try again (if you bypass the solenoid it will try to start so be aware of that)
if it starts you need a fatter + wire

Dave
David Gray. This year i am mainly In Twickenham, sometimes in Watford, often between the two but only between the hours of 07:00 -09:00 and 17:30-19:00

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Stu Twin
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Re: How hard can it be?

Post by Stu Twin »

Thanks Dave, comprehensive as usual.
I'll have a read a bit later, i'm too busy celebrating with a cold one.
Derek wins the bonus point - a different battery turned it over.
:woohoo:
Obviously 12.8v isn't what it used to be. (the one that worked read 12.9)
So the next purchase will be a battery as similar to the old red top (group 27) as possible that doesn't cost the better part of £400 delivered.

Might just search the net for a nice plain black one, but i do remember seeing someone's instructions on here how to dismantle an old red top battery and use the top plate with the caps and place over a regular battery. To give the impression you've spent £400.

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Dave999
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Re: How hard can it be?

Post by Dave999 »

ah ahahah ok so truly knackered battery.

has it ever been flattened..like totally.... they don't like it at all, and many never recover

you could try it on a new fangled charger with a revive and repair mode


Dave
David Gray. This year i am mainly In Twickenham, sometimes in Watford, often between the two but only between the hours of 07:00 -09:00 and 17:30-19:00

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Stu Twin
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Re: How hard can it be?

Post by Stu Twin »

It has been constantly on charge via 'smart charger' which ramps up & down, dissipates etc.
But that might be it's downfall.
May have kept the volts up but not the Amps.
Our new version of the 'resto' red top battery says not to use a smart charger or even a jump pack.

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Dave999
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Re: How hard can it be?

Post by Dave999 »

probably depends on battery chemistry...

you may have just boiled away all of the acid...

i had a Lion battery for approx 10 years... paid about £60,cheap rubbish if you believe the internet. warranty is very short
never charged it till the day it died, it sat for months at a time never a problem. But when it died it wouldn't take a charge

seems they fail quickly in modern cars, based on that anecdotal internet evidence, but it worked perfectly in charger with its basic charging system

i.e old style flip top battery for old style car where it gets cycled between 11 volts and 14.7 volts all the time

put it in a modern car where it is kept topped off by a 140 amp alternator, spends its life north of 12 volts, and maybe it can't take it, that's what i could glean from the internet ranting about them...

so i guess your modern but original looking battery might have been better suited to 1970s treatment bolt it in and leave it to fester

the trickle chargers work great with gel batteries and the sealed for life ones provided the charger has the right Programme

anyway GSF and EuroCP do an 096 lion battery for about £66

Yuasa is a step up for not much more

both are black and can have all the stickers removed...just wont have the same top. i.e it won't look standard but it might last for notalotta cash

use one of them and put the red top in the car when showing it, much cheaper than £400

Dave
David Gray. This year i am mainly In Twickenham, sometimes in Watford, often between the two but only between the hours of 07:00 -09:00 and 17:30-19:00

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morgan
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Re: How hard can it be?

Post by morgan »

Wot Dave says.
When I got the car it had a cheapo smallish Halfords battery in it. It wasn’t new looking. Did 10ish years with me after that ! Bought a bigger Bosch replacement a few years ago and so far so good....
If you have a knacked red top anything you can do to use the casing in cheaper batt ?
"Cum homine de cane debeo congredi." Woof.

Current Charger status - "Working !"

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