Does this engine sound right to you?

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Goblinking
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Does this engine sound right to you?

Post by Goblinking »

I was testing the gearbox operation properly for the first time on Saturday,the car has a 318 with 360 heads and intake,4 barrel holley 600 and a mystery cam.The car sounds flat to me at the higher revs,like a blatting noise is the only way i can describe it.
It has 22 inital and 44 degrees total timing and stock ignition.
Tell me what you think,is it just the way 318s sound?
Does the gearbox sound like it's adjusted correctly?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyxXEjXFP24
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Pete
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Re: Does this engine sound right to you?

Post by Pete »

I have no listened but 44 Degrees full advance on modern fuels is far too much, it needs to be a max of 34 degrees.
Pete Wiseman; Cambridge.

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Goblinking
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Re: Does this engine sound right to you?

Post by Goblinking »

Its running exclusively on Esso 99+ synergy supreme which has no ethanol,if that makes any difference?But she does seem to like 22 degrees initial.
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Pete
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Re: Does this engine sound right to you?

Post by Pete »

I run my Hemi on V Power and I still only have 30 Degrees Total in it (Hemis need a bit less than a "Wedge" design due to better flame propagation.)

It had a minor knock on the Dyno at 34 Degrees at 6800rpm, so I backed it off a bit as a precaution.

The paradox is having low initial timing so the motor will crank and start, then get as much timing in quickly to prevent unburnt fuel at idle, but not excessive advance when full to avoid detonation.
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DaveB
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Re: Does this engine sound right to you?

Post by DaveB »

Make sure TDC really is TDC, old harmonic balancers can slip, you may have less timing than you think
Check timing without vac advance dis connected
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Pete
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Re: Does this engine sound right to you?

Post by Pete »

Dave raises some good points there.

Go back to first principles and verify all the settings.

Once you are happy with that, I would not exceed 34 degrees.
Pete Wiseman; Cambridge.

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Goblinking
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Re: Does this engine sound right to you?

Post by Goblinking »

Ok chaps,the timing chain has some slack,10 degrees i would say,so im going to try 34 degrees total for now.The tdc checks out though.
I have a new roller chain to put on,so i will see what it runs like after its fitted.
From what i have just read,my spark plugs say the timing is too high,idle circuit is too rich and the jets are too small.
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SPIKE
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Re: Does this engine sound right to you?

Post by SPIKE »

My two pennyworth,
Looking at that plug it is getting too hot, possibly due to timing or even weak fuel mix, IMO its only the fact its a quality plug that has held things together. Is the heat range correct? check if there is a coloured band around the base of the electrode insulator, if there is that would indicate heat range is close.
Try more fuel and less timing, something is going to melt if this is from a high speed plug chop, Maybe just a blocked jet but needs immediate attention.
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Re: Does this engine sound right to you?

Post by MilesnMiles »

I’d endorse everything written above but add another factor.
There is the potential for mismatched parts here.
Do you know any further build details?
All stock 318s are low compression
360 heads have large (often 72cc) combustion chambers. If machined for big valves, potential for even more pwer loss in the cylinder.
Add a mystery cam and it’s difficult without full details of the build to know if the motor components are well matched.
SPIKE
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Re: Does this engine sound right to you?

Post by SPIKE »

The above does make sense as to why it will tolerate 44 degrees of timing, on modern fuel this is massive.
Try a compression check, that could tell you if its a low comp motor as clearly not burning oil so bores are good.

But honestly, do it now. My comments are from looking at plugs from a lot of engines and trust me, the next chapter in the story is not good!
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Dave999
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Re: Does this engine sound right to you?

Post by Dave999 »

did you have the vacuum advance connected when you checked initial timing? and what was it idling at?

if so disconnect and plug the pipe/port, and check again. if it was connected it should be to the carb at a port above the throttle plates not below, unless you have a very good reason to do so, its supposed to be on ported vacuum only and connected for use not when setting/checking the timing.


if its a standard dizzy you will probably have to put up with 5-7 BTDC initial to achieve a sensible total mechancial advance until
you can get an advance limiting plate and spring set to re-curve it.
if you can weld or braze and have a timing disk with a big enough hole you can set up your own limit by welding stuff up and twisting the rotor arm and filing off your weld until you get the advance limit set to what you need, somewhere between 6 and 10* at the rotor arm

if it genuinely needs 22 BTDC you need a distributor that advances 12 degrees or less at the crank by 3000 rpm i.e 5 or 6 at the rotor arm, you can't do that with a standard one without surgery.

i'd start at the other extreme
start with stock standard, which will be something like 5*BTDC initial advance and tune it to get a nice 800 rpm idle and try it
then add a degree or so tweak idle mix for either strongest vacuum or fastest idle, use the idle speed screw to bring it back down check carefully that it idles but doesn't creep in drive... try it out town driving no winding it up, just a clean pull in each gear
repeat
you are looking for the point where it drives nicely and the tailpipe stops making your eyes water
idling with the smallest throttle opening via the idle speed screw and the smoothest idle
I guess you will end up somewhere between 10 BTDC and 17 BTDC

get that bit sussed and then look at total advance, you won't know how much you need to have your distributor adjusted by, if you don't start at this end

i know nothing about holleys so can't help there but they do have a throttle stop and idle mix screws
you want the throttle blades nearly closed tiny crack and to be honest, i'd use a Gunson colour tune for the idle mix if i didn't have a lambda sensor. ive never been good enough to say "that sound right" so a visual indicator is good
Gunson is old skool a glass spark plug, when you see the flame as a blue/white flash, idle mix is pretty well spot on for that cylinder
but you won't necessarily get that on all 8 cylinders, with a 4bbl on a manifold in the middle, expect some variation that you can't tune away due to distribution issues
if you have 2 or 4 idle mixture screws you may be able to combat that variation really depends on how big the plenum is, Carb, cam and how well the manifold was designed, if its a race manifold, big, open plenum, the designer wasn't thinking about distribution at idle he was thinking about winning.....

to be honest i can whack 22 in mine once its running and it sounds pretty peppy, but i can't start it again, it tries to smash the starter motor.


Dave
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Goblinking
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Re: Does this engine sound right to you?

Post by Goblinking »

Sorry for the long time in replying to this,thank you everyone for the advice.
I finally got round to faffing with the car,i put a new roller timing chain on,which has made the car run better/smoother.
I swapped the distributor for a hei style one,so i didn't have to have a coil etc anymore,which again helped in the running of the engine,but it still appears to need loads of timing.I did discover it has a purple camshaft in it when i looked down the distributor hole.
But the timing is a weird one,i set it with the timing light at 18 degrees and it runs like crap,move it to 22 degrees and it smooths out.But if i use a vacuum guage to set it,it loves and runs best at 30 degrees initial,no pinging,overheating and no hard crank.
The vacuum on the engine is only about 14 inches at idle but i have just discovered i have a brake servo internal leak,which explains why it claps out when put in gear,probably also why it runs lean?
i have only done about 30 miles in it since i changed the chain,but i really dont like the sound of the side pipes on the car,so after i get it running right i am going to make or buy an exhaust so the pipes exit the rear,the way they should imo.
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Dave999
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Re: Does this engine sound right to you?

Post by Dave999 »

ok something not right.

are you sure you have your timing gun pickup on No.1 cylinder lead and the pickup has the arrow on it pointing to the plug.....
if not that could explain the huge initial timing

if you do have it on lead one
and lead one connects to cylinder 1
something is amiss

if you can start it with what appears to be 30* advance something is not set up correctly

i think you need to start again....
don't touch timing

set engine to 10BTDC on No.1 cylinder

this the the point when no.1 has both valves closed and the distributor rotor is pointing at least to the correct half of the distributor cap for no.1 cylinder.

adjust distributor round to that no.1 cylinder contact is directly above the rotor. draw a line on the body and cap to help align

then check that the leads, starting with no.1 put it in its position above the rotor and then connect up the rest in the right order.

see if it starts

then set timing.

if the vacuum can hits something leave timing as it is with Vacuum can hitting whatver it hit

do this process again you will probably find that you chose the wrong dizzy tower for no.1 and the dizzy needs turning back away from the thing it hit

adjust the wires by moving everything round 1 place and re set with no.1 over the rotor at TDC. again rota should point somewhere in the correct half of the dizzy for no.1 tower

reset the timing properly

HEI set up still uses a coil ? what make is it?


there is some kind of rule of thumb for this on a small block. i have never owned one so take this with a pinch of salt

as far as i know at TDC the distributor drive should be pointing at the drivers side headlamp....I think someone with 318 V8 experience necessary here to confirm,
see attached
think this is for or the drive under distributor, but that would get rotor pointing totally at n0.1 or totally away from no.1. if totally away, wind engine over to TDC from here, to both valves closed).
In theory it doesn't matter where the drive is but in this case to sort out the issue i think it best of this is checked.

back to the book settings is best when things are weird



Dave
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Dave999
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Re: Does this engine sound right to you?

Post by Dave999 »

if all else fails do this to check TDC timing mark on balancer, as Dave B says the outer on the balancer could have slipped

get old spark plug (or safer buy a piston stop tool with the correct spark plug thread (or at least a set of adaptors)) either will do

spark plug method



smash out the middle and snap off the earth strap crack off the top so you are left with just the metal body
put bolt through plug so its end sticks out where the spark used to be made and secure it with a nylock
you want it 1/2 -1 inch longer than the plug used to be it needs to stop the piston reaching the top of the bore

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333801863746 ... AfEALw_wcB

stop tool is safer


wind No1 to the bottom of its bore

fit your modified plug or tool
carefully wind engine forwards until you modified spark plug stops the piston
go to timing tab on timing cover. there is a hole in it use a centre punch to ding the balancer through the hole. make a precise mark that you can see easily draw a line near it with nail varnish or paint pen so you can find it easily again

wind the engine over backwards carefully
until no. 1 cylinder stops again i.e approach your modified plug from the other way

repeat the marking process on the balancer


Remove modified plug


wind engine over so you can stick your head under the front end and see both of your marks from below (this is why i suggest nail varnish or paint as well as the punch mark)

beneath is easier you are not climbing all over radiator and fan. on yer back looking up works, just 1 bolt on member between car front valance/radiator support and front of K frame to negotiate

stick a bit of masking tape on the balancer that covers a bit of circumference wider than both of the punch marks
use a craft knife to trim off the ends exactly in line with the punch marks. use a steel rule or something

you are left with a nice bit of tape which spans exactly the distance between the marks

carefully peal it off and stick it to a bit of normal office paper. smooth and flat

cut it out and fold it in half exactly to get something half the length between the two punch marks.

align one end of it with 1 punch mark, with the other end heading towards the other punch mark
the end of your folded tape indicates TDC...... mark your balancer HERE as 0 Degrees . set timing using this new mark

this caters at least for the time being, for a balancer who's outer ring has slipped, and therefore has incorrect timing marks. who knows when it will slip again


use the original factory marks to mark on your paper/tape the circumference distance in mm for 10 and 20 degrees

mark up 10 and 20 degree lines from you new TDC mark on the balancer
use yellow paint pen like those used in breakers yards or nail varnish, spray paint on the edge of a piece of card or old ruler also works dip it and use it to make a nice mark perpendicular to the timing cover, on the balancer

Dave
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying
Goblinking
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Re: Does this engine sound right to you?

Post by Goblinking »

Thanks Dave,loads of good advice,but i've already done it.
The only thing i haven't done is degree the cam.
When i replaced the chain,the one that came out was installed 4 degrees advanced so thats which way i put the new one back in.
I really might just pull it all to bits and rebuild it,god knows which way it was built or what is has had done over the decades but im just chasing my tail here.
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