Ignition & EFI advice needed

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Dino
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Ignition & EFI advice needed

Post by Dino »

Hi all,

I'm looking for some guidance if you'd be so kind :)

This is where I am to give you a quick background:

Currently re-wiring Charger, engine is in (512ci). I've got a second hand MegaSquirt EFI setup ready to go in but I need some help deciding the most suitable ignition system. Years ago (before the EFI decision) I bought a standard coil, leads and the orange box but recently saw a US show stating that the easiest/best ignition for EFI would be an MSD one, i.e. Dizzy, leads, coil and 6AL or 7AL

What are your thoughts? Also, will I still need a voltage regulator if I went for the MSD setup?

I want to get it right before I start modifying the wiring to suit the old stuff & I know I can ask here and not get mugged off for being a numpty :lol:
Well, usually... :D
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mopar_mark
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Re: Ignition & EFI advice needed

Post by mopar_mark »

Hi,
MSD 7AL will work, I personally look out for a second hand MSD 7531, a much better ignition & has a lot of features built in. Then again your Megasquirt may have a lot of these features so maybe not necessary…..

You will not need a voltage regulator with this type of ignition or put another way I have never used one. (Edit, sorry I was mixing up with Ballast resistor, thanks to Dave999 )

Does the Megasquirt EFI requires a crank signal or can it use the signal from the distributor, I also assume it needs & cam signal.

Don’t forget the fuel side & extra fuel pressure required.
Last edited by mopar_mark on Tue Jul 13, 21 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dave999
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Re: Ignition & EFI advice needed

Post by Dave999 »

depends on which megasquirt you have

old needed something like a FORD EDIS set up 36-1 wheel on crank an EDIS 8 Module 2x 4 tower coil packs off a 90s fiesta 1 condenser off fiesta
and the crank trigger out of its bellhousing (36-1 pattern in back of flywheel) ( its a long back tube with a coil and magnet in)

because the trigger wheel was on the crank this meant the system knew where the crank was in degrees of rotation and hence know what each cylinder is doing... it could calulate where TDC was for No.1, better for ignition and gives you options on the Fuel injection routine batch up NOW and NEXT cylinders or have 1 bank then the other or just fire all injectors all the same time
and you could run a wasted spark coil pack or coil on plug if you could fathom the wireing to make them look like coil pack.

i think more modern megasquirt has coil drivers built in and potentially doesn't need the EDIS module but still needs to know crank position

this means you need either
crank trigger
cam angle sensor
a distributor with a special pickup and trigger in it that marks TDC so that again the software can work out what cylinder is doing what

the most accurate measure of crank position is always the crank trigger wheel method
cam sensor and distributor both driven off the crank so their position is subject to variance built into their drive i.e slop in timing chain or wear and harmonics impacting the oil pump/dissy drive

i must admit i have not looked at megasquirt for 10+ years

and to keep things simple i think this is a better bet these days

this is a basic ECU for about £200 from Powemods in south africa

https://powermods.co.za/Pages/Shop.asp? ... PID=142207

its a clone of the GOTECH MFI-X which costs the same is made by the same geezers but is obsolete. powermods as a brand just carries on production of the obsolete Gotech stuff, gotech being the premium brand

both will allow you to use your standard dizzy (locked or ELB) with an adaptor or a range of crank trigger wheel styles

both will work in close loop self learning mode up to 25% on the throttle position sensor (all you need)

NOW they might be rubbish.... i have not got one or know anyone with one but the south africans like a fast car and like a bit of racing and they seem to like this stuff. and they are cheap because the south African Rand is worth diddley squat

nobody over here sells or fits them

manual for both is on the site listed

if i get a bonus this year i'm gonna buy one some 360 magnum injectors and some dcoe throttle bodies off sherryberg on aliexpress.com
coupled with v8 range rover in tank pump or a bosch external one

it may be a bad move, or genius i just don't want to spend £700 on an ECU £600 on injectors and £1200 quid on Jenvey dcoe heritage bodies

i am a true TAVO as the aussies would say a TightArseValiantOwner.

I've rambled


if you can find out what Megasquirt you have and which options are enabled by the software loaded on it , that will probably dictate the best ignition set up for you... chryslers have a lot of stuff on the front of the balancer already and there is a bloody big fan to account for as well so fitting more down the front of the motor like a trigger wheel and pickup can be hard work if you have aircon and power steering

and sometime the style of ignition set up you choose dictates or limits the range of options you have for firing the injectors
more options with coil on plug and wasted spark as both need a TDC indicator provided by cam or crank sensor.

sorry a lot of crap from someone who has planned it many times but never done it

Dave
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying
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Dave999
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Re: Ignition & EFI advice needed

Post by Dave999 »

PS didn't undersatnd the voltage regulator bit
you need one for your alternator/chargeing. and it should be an electronic one
you don't need a ballast resistor for an MSD set up..

you must pay attention to use shielded cables for signals, good quality cable for pulsing injectors and good waterproof mini timer connectors
and keep everything away from the HT side of things

use a Star earth set up. all ignition and FI earths to 1 spot so they all see the same ZERO volts

using the MSD limits you to usiing a simple trigger and a distributor for the igntion i think........ it works fine but might limit how you fire your injectors

But the impacts of this depends on if you inject into a plenum or direct from manifold into the back of the valve head
into a plenum and it really doesn't matter when the injectors fire

put it this way. MODERN FI cars don't use a distributor

Dave
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying
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Matt
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Re: Ignition & EFI advice needed

Post by Matt »

If you’re going megasquirt then my choice would be distributorless ignition. The megasquirt should be able to control spark advance with the EDIS, or maybe on its own - as Dave999 says.

good things :

1) Ford production line EDIS computer and coil packs. No unreliable aftermarket parts.

2) full programmability of advance curve. Ability to switch between saved pre-programmed curves

3) wasted spark means no cam position sensor needed.

4) no distributor !

I’ve has EDIS on my 440 Charger for years now (with Megajolt and carburettor) and it’s been fabulous.

Lots of useful stuff at trigger-wheels .com , and generally on the net.
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Dino
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Re: Ignition & EFI advice needed

Post by Dino »

Guys, thank you all for taking the time to reply and in great detail.

The setup I bought, a few years ago now, is a MegaSquirt 1 V3.0 that was removed from a 440. I'll stick with it for now as I'm hoping it will be easier to get running than starting from scratch. It was a full setup, ECU, injectors, fuel rail, throttle body & inlet manifold. Bizarrely one of the injectors has two nozzles where as all the others have one. :dontknow: They are Ford injectors that I've not managed to identify yet, even after removing the red paint on them :shock:

This is going to be a huge learning curve for me but I do have someone to lean on for advice thankfully.

I quite like the idea of running without a distributor and a couple of coil packs.

The poxy ballast resistor will be binned and I shall be ordering a voltage reg, sorry for the confusion.

Will do a bit more research and take a look at trigger-wheels :thumbright:

With regards to the fuel pressure, will 3/8" hose be suitable to run from the fuel tank but with a high performance pump?

Matt, I believe I bought my exhaust off you about a decade ago! That's how long I've been collecting parts for!! Haha
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mopar_mark
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Re: Ignition & EFI advice needed

Post by mopar_mark »

Dino wrote: Tue Jul 13, 21 9:19 pm Guys, thank you all for taking the time to reply and in great detail.

The setup I bought, a few years ago now, is a MegaSquirt 1 V3.0 that was removed from a 440. I'll stick with it for now as I'm hoping it will be easier to get running than starting from scratch. It was a full setup, ECU, injectors, fuel rail, throttle body & inlet manifold. Bizarrely one of the injectors has two nozzles where as all the others have one. :dontknow: They are Ford injectors that I've not managed to identify yet, even after removing the red paint on them :shock:

This is going to be a huge learning curve for me but I do have someone to lean on for advice thankfully.

I quite like the idea of running without a distributor and a couple of coil packs.

The poxy ballast resistor will be binned and I shall be ordering a voltage reg, sorry for the confusion.

Will do a bit more research and take a look at trigger-wheels :thumbright:

With regards to the fuel pressure, will 3/8" hose be suitable to run from the fuel tank but with a high performance pump?

Matt, I believe I bought my exhaust off you about a decade ago! That's how long I've been collecting parts for!! Haha
Hi,
Good to know a little bit more about what you have acquired.

As mentioned earlier, Crank trigger & cam signal are generally required, in order to establish TDC & #1 Firing stroke.

You somehow need to verify what injectors you have, especially when you say one injector has 2 nozzles. Also EFI will need to know to help verify parameters, EFI set up. Injectors will most likely be sized in LB/Hr or CC/ min

Crank trigger & Coil packs is a good move & best option for EFI. You need to also verify Crank trigger requirement for your ECU, No of teeth,, what does the system need to sense, Crank sensor requirement (Hall effect, etc)

When you say fuel rail, I assume you meant plural ?

Fuel line, not familiar with your EFI system, but would of thought you need at least 40/45 psi. Typically, fuel is fed to the fuel rails & regulated on the return line to the tank. By regulating after the fuel rails, it helps maintain required fuel pressure for the injectors.


I would of thought # 8 supply & #6 return would be the minimum fuel line sizes, but not knowing injector sizes, hard to gauge.

Does your throttle Body also have a TPS (Throttle position Sensor) as this is normally a requirement.

Not meaning to put you off, just trying to stop you buying the wrong things, read up on your system, what it likes, what works, what’s best, etc….
"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."
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Dave999
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Re: Ignition & EFI advice needed

Post by Dave999 »

in theory you can use MAP sensor or TPS for load not sure if you can use both with mega squirt
MAP seemed to be favoured with megasquirt for plenum style intakes when I last looked but i'm well out of date

TPS provision was originally added for port on port setups like mine i.e multi carbs, single runners no plenum 3 webers on a 6 or 4 on an 8 type set up

if the thing has both what you can do is leave the MAP open to the atmosphere and use it for altitude or atmospheric pressure compensation
not really that useful in the UK :) unless you are cutting edge racing kinda guy High pressure in summer usually = hot weather and less dense air
high pressure in winter usually = cold and clear and nice dense air Its a fudge dependent on day of use
you run a summer map and a winter map depending on season

for altitude its easier as the pressure decreases you assume less oxygen and adjust accordingly, up high air pressure is lower air is thin etc

if you have 9 injectors and 8 cylinders the one with 2 nozzles was probably into the plenum as a start and idle injector with the rest boss mounted into manifold runners
maybe not 9 but say an odd number when you have even no. of cylinders

but you can also do start and idle with an idle air control valve or just the throttle stops like a Carb and normal injectors cover fuel needs

if it came off a v8 once installed it should at least run half the work done unless the chap who sold it to you just offloaded something he couldn't make work


if you end up needing EDIS8 you will have to look to US/ canada ebay and get the EDIS8 specific connector (i can help with dismantling connector ive done a few)
but as i say the rest is fiesta parts

you only get EDIS6 and EDIS 4 in Europe

trigger wheels does a nice coil pack bracket for mounting 2 fiesta coils for a v8 install
i have the 6 cylinder one for my megajolt Lite which i never installed.....must get my finger out built it 10+ years ago.



Dave
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Dave999
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Re: Ignition & EFI advice needed

Post by Dave999 »

on the fuel front i am no expert but

i'd run an in tank pump
or a bosch pump (or 2) below the tank outlet
through a steel or braided line to the front
round the fuel rails to a regulator with a return
the return should see little or no pressure, any at the return is added to the setting on the regulator, you don't want a restriction after the regulator... smooth easy flow back to tank
i'd get a new tank sender unit that has a return fitting as well as an outlet with a pipe that runs inside the tank under the fuel to dump what is returned
use modern fuel injection rubber hose for the return. any pressure in it is just the weight of the fuel in the tank + excess from regulator. i.e low


cheap in tank pumps if you fancy.... Range Rover Classic V8 EFI In-Tank High Pressure Fuel Pump upto 1990 - PRC8318

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324505366036 ... SwIEFgP7KF


2 of these into top of tank
you cut and extend the pump. cut the bracket from pump to pipe and either bolt (with nylocs or similar metal based lock nuts) or weld in longer bit and extend the rubber pipe, so that the base/pickup gets to the bottom of the tank

use 1 way valves in the outlets and a T piece before the main feed up the car i.e avoid the strongest of the pair, because there will be one, bullying the weakest


cut hole in tank
use compressible gasket and self tappers or rivnuts

use your original tank outlet as a return and you can continue to use you original fuel gauge sender

these supported an approximately 4 litre rover engines hence suggestion of 2 for a 440 one might work.....

OEM quality, not expensive, reliable , not the parts of this model rangie and landrover that went wrong all the time all good

Dave
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Dino
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Re: Ignition & EFI advice needed

Post by Dino »

Guys,

Thank you very much for the advice, it's given me a lot to think about and read up on.

I neglected to mention that the system I purchased also came with the fuel pump below and a fuel reg also from QSP #-o

https://www.qspproducts.nl/en/qp-580-90 ... p-products

I've seen videos of it running in the previous owners Hudson Pick Up over in Rotterdam, to be honest it was an excuse to buy it and have a lads trip to Amsterdam :D

The injector with two nozzles is a worry as the other 7 have just the one. I think I'll set out to replace them all once I know we can get it up and running. Will spend some time researching the MSI kit and what input it will need to function based on your suggestions.

Thanks again, much appreciated,

Dean. :thumbright:
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