Scottish Independence.

[Trigger_Andy]

There will be no spite. Many couples get on better after a divorce.

And why would we do that? We'd be making money on them.

My biggest worry is that Scotland will keep all the Tunnock caramel biscuits to themselves !!

I was thinking out of spite !
Bet the price goes up then.

[Mossy68]

There will be no spite. Many couples get on better after a divorce.

And why would we do that? We'd be making money on them.

I was thinking out of spite !
Bet the price goes up then.

That's very true Andy.

[Trigger_Andy]

Food for thought.....





And this I found quite funny.

[Black Country Nailer]

Andy,

Still can't see any difference between "Scotland is legally part of the UK" and "Orkney and Shetland are legally part of Scotland" so a 12 mile limit for an independent Scotland it is then!

Actually both statements are debatable, borders change regularly, by agreement or conflict, and the territorial waters go with the change.

Agree about currency, you can use anything you want; Euro, USD, GBP, or maybe NOK would suit you? You just won't have any control. That is if you don't want to create your own currency which seems to be the case.

Also can you tell my why you think the duty collected on Whisky sold in England, Wales and NI should go to Scotland? The duty collected on the French wine I drink doesn't go the french, why is whisky different? Or have I misunderstood something?

[Trigger_Andy]

I guess its not really relevent why you cant see any difference between the two. Your reasoning does not seem to be the same as Westminsters otherwise they would be using it heavily in the No Campaign would they not? Instead they heavily and intentionally underestimate the reserves left in the North Sea. Why is that do you think?

Im really not sure why you are so fixated on the oil issue. Did you watch the video I just posted about renewables?

OK, say you are right and Scotland has to give up 50% of the reserves to Shetland and the other islands in 10-20 years time, it that is infact what they want, I presume thats how long it would take for them to have everything in place our renewables would be in place to make the loss irrelevant. We would have the funding from the Oil to cover the start up costs. Look at the figures in the Vid, Scotland is more than well placed to make significant money from the excess.


You have lost me on the Whisky front. Can you supply links to your point of view considering its the Chancellor who sets the duty price and collects the duty on Whiskey.

http://www.scotch-whisky.org.uk/media/1 ... enfs10.pdf

Andy,

Still can't see any difference between "Scotland is legally part of the UK" and "Orkney and Shetland are legally part of Scotland" so a 12 mile limit for an independent Scotland it is then!

Actually both statements are debatable, borders change regularly, by agreement or conflict, and the territorial waters go with the change.

Agree about currency, you can use anything you want; Euro, USD, GBP, or maybe NOK would suit you? You just won't have any control. That is if you don't want to create your own currency which seems to be the case.

Also can you tell my why you think the duty collected on Whisky sold in England, Wales and NI should go to Scotland? The duty collected on the French wine I drink doesn't go the french, why is whisky different? Or have I misunderstood something?

[Black Country Nailer]

Don't think I ever mentioned oil, just territorial water.

I agree that the 12 mile argument fails, but it fails for both scenarios. I'm just arguing for consistency.

As far as alcohol duties go, the UK sets rates for alcohol made or imported into the UK. If Scotland is outside the UK then the UK will collect duty on all imports whether from Scotland, France or anywhere else.

[CLPete]

I’m not sure which part you don’t understand? …

Evening Andy, thanks for posting back. I appreciate the links that you’ve supplied, although they are not directly related to the question I was asking, I will have a read and comment when I get a moment.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/ ... 1408948717

England would inherit the whole of the UK Debt without a currency union. Something they will not accept. Not to mention that the UK's Debt is propped up on 'Taratan Oil'

I read your comment, followed the link supplied above, and read the article.


If I could summarise the position of the article (feel free to comment if you think I have it wrong):


Pro-Independence Scottish Newspaper publishes an opinion piece based on comments from Sir James Mirrlees (Nobel Laureate), Crawford Beveridge and Joseph Stiglitz (Nobel Laureate), all members of the Scottish Government’s Council of Economic advisors, and a spokesperson for John Swinney, Scottish Finance Secretary.

“It is hard to see how Scotland can take on the debt unless there is a full currency union” (Sir James Mirrlees)

“One would expect that if we were to bear a proportional burden of historic liabilities then we would reasonably expect a reasonable share of the assets” (Crawford Beveridge)

“The pound is as much Scotland’s pound as the rest of the UK’s, and a currency union is in the interests of both – which is why the Scottish Government proposes it, and which is why it will be agreed after a Yes vote” (Spokesperson for John Swinney, Scottish Finance Secretary).


The main thrust of the article with this in mind seems to be:

1. Scotland and the rest of the UK share “ownership” of the Pound.

2. Scotland will not accept a share of the debt of the UK unless it has a currency union with the rest of the UK.


Point One is self-evidently true.

Point Two seems to be a matter of personal opinion from a number of individuals. I can see the logic that is implied by the comments when put together, but I don’t think it is a logical position that can stand on its merits.

I have to say that there are a number of very poor comments in this article. At best, they are poorly quoted / worded. At best, they are misleading, simplistic and somewhat confrontational.


The reason why I said that I didn’t understand was the reason for you posting the link.

I can’t see that the comment …

… England would inherit the whole of the UK Debt without a currency union. …

… is supported in an objective way by the link. Hence I was just curious as to why you posted it - as in, what was the outcome that you were looking for? (And why others seem to be doing so over the internet).

Just my 2p worth on this post and link, that is all. I do love a good debate, but I really don’t like lazy journalism, nor “spin doctors” – of any ilk (and there are just as many terrible ones on the “pro-union” side too, I will happily admit!).



(Note: I'm not implying that you are a "spin doctor" Andy, but am referring to the people in the article / author of the article)

[Trigger_Andy]

You might not have explicitly mentioned oil but it was implied.



Scottish Whisky earns 4 Billion GBP per year, this goes to England's coffers, not Scotlands. Independent would change that and the money would go where it rightfully belongs.

http://www.scotch-whisky.org.uk/what-we ... s-figures/

Don't think I ever mentioned oil, just territorial water.

I agree that the 12 mile argument fails, but it fails for both scenarios. I'm just arguing for consistency.

As far as alcohol duties go, the UK sets rates for alcohol made or imported into the UK. If Scotland is outside the UK then the UK will collect duty on all imports whether from Scotland, France or anywhere else.

[Black Country Nailer]

If Scotland imposes an export tax on whisky it will not be competitive in the high volume market, the UK duty will be added so we'll end up drinking Bushmills which will be several pounds cheaper. It won't affect the premium end of the market, have to say that Islay malts are superb and an extra few pounds on an £80 bottle ain't going to make a lot of difference but that won't raise £4 Billion in duty for Scotland.

Territorial water is much more than just oil, you have brought up the subject of renewables and there's an awful lot of fish as well.

I have no opinion on independence It really doesn't bother me one way or the other.

I've read what politicians are saying, sadly it's the same old same old; politicians not telling lies in such a way that the truth is impossible to detect.

[Trigger_Andy]

Scotland would be independent, the revenue earned would no longer flow into England's coffers, they would stay in Scotland where they belong. Sales of Scottish Whisky are going up not down especially in the emerging market of China. The rest of the word care even less that the English if Scotland is independent or not. Actually thats not true, the people Ive talked to (Yanks) actually prefer the romance of Scotland being a free country. Scotland would be foolish to impose a higher export tax than is already done so by the Chancellor. Considering the funds raised would go much further spread around 5 million people than 53 million people there is no need to rock the status quo on that front.

I agree with you, there is serious spin on each side and the truth must lie somewhere in the middle.

But Id rather be free and broke than a rich slave. Thats a sentiment many feel in Scotland. The upside is have a very high chance of not being broke and actually being extremely prosperous. We would be taken seriously on the world stage and no longer be seen as the lazy and poor part of the UK who gets by on the scraps thrown to us when the truth is infact the opposite.

The No campaign is actually a boon to the Yes campaign, they are so out of touch with the people its laughable.

But unfortunately I still believe we will not get independance. I honestly thing the powers that be will be controlling t all

If Scotland imposes an export tax on whisky it will not be competitive in the high volume market, the UK duty will be added so we'll end up drinking Bushmills which will be several pounds cheaper. It won't affect the premium end of the market, have to say that Islay malts are superb and an extra few pounds on an £80 bottle ain't going to make a lot of difference but that won't raise £4 Billion in duty for Scotland.

Territorial water is much more than just oil, you have brought up the subject of renewables and there's an awful lot of fish as well.

I have no opinion on independence It really doesn't bother me one way or the other.

I've read what politicians are saying, sadly it's the same old same old; politicians not telling lies in such a way that the truth is impossible to detect.

[Trigger_Andy]

Another view from Shetland by the Shetland News:

http://www.shetnews.co.uk/features/scot ... bbc-debate

I like this comment:

A huge number of countries have gained independence from the UK.

It includes places like Ireland, Australia and the USA.

Not many of them had *all* the answers before they left Westminster's control. Some, like Eire and the USA left after a war. There wasn't any sort of agreement in place either.

None of them have ever tried to come back under Westminster's control again.

Go for it!

[Black Country Nailer]

Andy,
The only comment that really bothers me is;

But unfortunately I still believe we will not get independance. I honestly thing the powers that be will be controlling t all

Do you really think the vote will be manipulated?

I respect your passion and as I have no logical reasoning for or against the union good luck to you.

As regards other countries getting independence that's way out of my expertise, all I know is that some have done well (Canada, Australia) others not so well, Southern Rhodesia declaring UDI wasn't exactly a great move in hindsight!

Now, can we get back to discussing Mopars?

[Trigger_Andy]

If it bothers you think how much it bothers me.

There is not one independent review that puts Scotland in the same category as Rhodesia, to conjure up such baseless tripe is even beneath Darling.

Some interesting views:


I can honestly say there is no reason why Scotland couldn't be a successful independent country.
NZ has a smaller population, lower GDP, less infrastructure and no oil what so ever....and yet thriving and flourishing!
What people are forgetting there are lots of 'wee' successful countries all over the world that have independence and autonomy, Scotland should be one of them.

im: the McCrone report outlined what youve said. Scotlands economy would be very strong - a currency union is a good way to prop up the UK economy and weaken our own, which pulls back inflation and interest rates - keeping the cost of living lower for us citizens. Scotland would also underwrite UK debt and become the main lender..... In short instead of the US Federal Reserve being the Bank of Englands lender or last resort, it would be Scotland.

You do realise this is a general section yes?

Andy,
The only comment that really bothers me is;

But unfortunately I still believe we will not get independance. I honestly thing the powers that be will be controlling t all

Do you really think the vote will be manipulated?

I respect your passion and as I have no logical reasoning for or against the union good luck to you.

As regards other countries getting independence that's way out of my expertise, all I know is that some have done well (Canada, Australia) others not so well, Southern Rhodesia declaring UDI wasn't exactly a great move in hindsight!

Now, can we get back to discussing Mopars?

[Black Country Nailer]

Andy,

I have never put forward my opinion as to whether breaking up the union is a good or bad thing. Honestly I don't know but my opinion doesn't count as I don't have a vote.

My comments are only directed at the inconsistency in some of the arguments.

Try this link; http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/ta ... dex_en.htm

It's an EU internal document which shows the lengths that are gone to to make sure excise duties are paid in the country where product is released for consumption not the country of production. I know it's EU only but does demonstrate the principle of where duties are paid. The UK gets no duty on exports of scotch whisky (or english gin) but does collect duty on imported french wine. An independent Scotland would be able levy duty on imported english gin and french wine but would not get any duty on exported whisky. I'm not saying this is right or fair just saying this is how it is.

We'll never agree about Scotland as part of the UK being different to Orkney/Shetland as part of Scotland, so let's agree to disagree on that. It's probably not going to be an issue anyway.

[Trigger_Andy]

I understand. I dont get the vote either as Im still in Norway. Its just a discussion of the merits of Independance or not.

I think its great you're taking the time to join in, so thanks for that.

I really dont have a full or even a partial understanding of what goes on as regards taxation and revenue earned but what I do know is if the No Campaign are not arguing the toss then the numbers add up. Surely that makes sense to you?

Darling is up in Scotland trying his hardest and now Cameron is up too getting well and truly humiliated as well. There is also Labour MP's defecting over to SNP that has to have some implications as well.

I guess time will tell. The polls still have the yes votes trailing the No's so its not looking good.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home ... p.17403393

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/ ... n.25180163