440 Replacement Starter Motor issue

[GranSport]

Hi there,
69 Charger 440. Original style starter motor stuck a couple of times then failed.
Old motor has one tooth chipped and looks pretty shot.
New motor arrived from Rock Auto.
Application chart is pretty wide
Fitted last night but just whirrs away without contacting the ring gear
There is a spacer plate behind the starter which I kept in place but this is only 1/16". It is separate from the engine/gearbox plate.
If I remove it, will it now work? Worried that there is zero contact with the flywheel at the moment and that distance won't cure it.
I'll add some images.

Thanks
Eddie Cross

[Dave999]

Unlikley thats just your bellhousing seal
you wouldn't want just that sliver of tooth engament, needs to be full pinion over lapping both sides of ring gear teeth

The shim stops leaves and road dirt getting into bell housing. one of those things that usually gets left off becasue you have to put it in place as you put the bellhousing on and easy to forget.


new starter can you try it on your battery using some jump leads
does the pinion shoot right out and hide the end of its shaft in the pocket at the end of the starter snout
or has the pinion circlip ring got knocked cockeyed so it doesn't



you need 12 volts to starter big connector and 12 volts to switch it on, to the small connector

when you hit the small connector starter should turn and pinion should jump out with vigour and the end of the pinion shaft should go into the end of the snout.

the pinion on these has a skirt to stop them going past the ring gear so they never go that far in normal ops.

sounds like a sticking solenoid. i.e isn't firing the pinion out to mesh with the ring gear
if it was a pinion to rig gear mis match you would hear it grinding away

but what size pinion does you old one have? just eyeball it against a ruler
should be about 35mm if its 27 or 25 mm thats yer problem... you have a flywheel or ring gear that is either gen ii hemi or australian
in which case you will need a 25 mm 9 tooth pinion.


from what i can see you have the exact starter i would have purchased for anything made from about 1965 up to 1996

i.e most US mopars seems to use a starter with a 35 mm 10 tooth pinion and the mounting you can see on both of your starters
i.e if its good for a 5.2 litre magnum. it will work on anything 318 340 360 400 440 except a gen II street hemi which used a starer configured like the australian one, early slants have a different starter

if it turns out you have a wierd combination WOSP performance can help

https://www.wosperformance.co.uk/starte ... 1&t=3&m=71

you don't have to buy one of his... he can sell you parts or pinion to match application

affable chap

Dave

[Dave999]

Oh

one or two other things

the jaws of the snout of the new denso differ from the old starter in small dimensional ways
and the d shaped location nubbin on the end is an easy push fit rather than "i didn't even notice"

kinda tighter to get that all in than the old one, starter jaw has to go over the ring and be moved into position to line up with location hole in back of bell, all while the starter mounting stud is engageing with the bottom mounting hole on the starter snout. Its easy to get it on the mounting but still have that D shaped locator sitting against the edge of the hole it should be in at the bottom of the starter well in the bell housing

if the top edge of the starter isn't flush with the parting line of bell and motor the starter is cocked diagonally up toward top of back seat,
it then won't mesh and you risk snapping the mounting lugs off.

file a chamfer to the leading edge of the D shaped end of the snout if there isn't one already or just give it a bit more of a touch with the file. they are often rough cast and not cleaned up properly.
it will clonk right in....i.e it will just feel right when you have it seated properly. put on bottom NUT tight enough to hold the shim in position after you have positioned it appropriately through the coverter inspection or flywheel inspection cover plate from below

you can then get the top bolt through the bell housing and starter without the shim moving and blocking off its route.
the shim has a hole in it for the standard starter the hole is usually too big for the denso so the shim sits in the wrong place and you can't fit the top bolt.

i glue mine in with a blob of sealant now, saves messin.

Big block and small block have different sized starter captive mounting stud on the bell housing and chrylser didn't stick to that, it seems random.... the starters thes days all have a big hole for a big stud.. if you have small stud put the top bolt in before doing up the nut on the stud so you can make sure the starter is in the right place.
i.e with all done up finger tight give it a wiggle

Dave

[Dave999]

if ya stuck i have some pinions you can try...

35mm standard
27mm long 10 tooth
25 mm offset fat skirt 9 tooth


the wosp range of pnions here https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product_list/292

swapping them over is a skinned knuckles job. but there is a knack

you in Egham?

dave

[Dave999]

In my opinion the pinion that you should have is the one on the left
standard mopar and about 35 mm across from tooth tip to tooth tip

skirted short lead pinion

next to it is a similar config 27mm one...useless for me
next to that is a thick skirted No lead 25 mm 9 tooth. on my car this proved to be engaged with the ring gear all the time and would need a 10 mm thick starter spacer plate to work
next to it is a hack job 9 tooth 25mm short lead that worked for me 99% of the time, until i got one that wasn't hacked

under pinion springs
under pinion splined spring stop rings
end of shaft spring clip retainers and the over retainer covers. stops the snap ring coming undone under rotation

if you take your starter apart, up the inside of your pinion shaft is a ball bearing glued in with red grease, it will fall out at some point...
the solenoid acts on it to push the pinion out

don't lose it

you coulkd probably machine the lead end off a short lead pinion and use 2 springs and 2 spring stops under it to make a no lead 35 mm pinion. pinion would then start closer to ring gear.
But that would be odd situation. it would imply you have your ring gear in the wrong place or the wrong flywheel offset at the mounting boss on the crank

dave

[GranSport]

Hi Dave,
Just checked the replies tonight. You star!
Ton of stuff to work through. Really do appreciate this.
I am committed to use the car for a wedding in August and this was really worrying me.
I'll hopefully get time on it this weekend and let you know progress.
The car is very original from what I have seen (build sheet too) so reasonably confident its not a parts mismatch.
I did do a quick check on pinion diameter and made them the same (need to count the teeth though)
Fit is very tight to the block and with the spacer plate there is definately scope for it not seating properly

All the best
Eddie

[GranSport]

Twickenham! How many sugars?

Cheers

[Dave999]

you are kinda local

if you need pinions to try, let me know... i'm in newcastle for 2 weeks at the mo working from my mums while shes away on her hols, i'm looking after elderly relative in between meetings

But if you need the bits i'l let my wife know, as they are on the desk where i photographed them..


Dave

[GranSport]

Thanks Dave,
Hoping to get some quality spannering time this evening.

Eddie

[Blue]

Have you tested it off the car? Sounds to me like the starter is spinning but the pinion isn’t getting thrown out, the heavy cable spins the motor, the light one throws out the pinion. If the pinion isn’t coming out, short the 2 terminals on the starter relay. If it comes out then it’s a faulty relay, if not it’s the starter itself.

[GranSport]

Update,
New starter Pinion is 10 tooth.
Tested on the bench- solenoid pushing it out so good there
Removed the engine plate to trial fit. Could not get the lower fixing hole over the stud.
Unscrewed the stud
No interference with the smaller lower hole
Fixed with the top bolt
Lower stud not aligned to screw back in
Plastic shroud for the large positive connection contacting the block. Maybe just keeping it from dropping in square.
Tried filing the corner a tad but not a good plan to break through the plastic.
Hmm possibly the shroud is keeping it at a slight angle to stop the stud going in.
Unscrewed large nut and small nut to move the fixing- large nut came off, small nut turned the thread inside the starter and is now a bit loose which is bad news.
If I could remove the fixing I could eliminate it as the problem.
Read some other threads for big blocks and sounds like there can be interference with the engine block. I'll try again and try and figure every spot that it is binding on.
These are not reassuring...
https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/th ... ce.468486/


Will try again tomorrow,
Eddie

[Blue]

Remove the bolt on wire extender and discard. You may need to grind some clearance on the half moon section of the block to allow the starter to bolt up square. Once the starter bolts up square make sure the large terminal doesn’t contact the block, it will be close. It’s all a bit of a faff but the engine will crank like never before.

[Dave999]

ok lower stud not aligned to put back in....

that would imply that the end of the starter isn't in the hole in the base of the starter well in the bell...

OR was this with the seal shim in place ....! in which case it moved and blocked off the hole

it will just clonk in and feel RIGHT when its in.. it it doen't clonk it aint in...


its like putting a gear box in... when you have all the time in the world it just goes through the clutch and into the crank spigot bush no probs
when you don't you fight with it for 2 hours and eventually undo the clutch cover and cheat...


but i agree this https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/th ... ce.468486/ does sound like it could be the case here

if you don't have a grinder with a grinding disk let me know....i can direct liz my wife to a red box with all you need in it....

i think you need to take that boss off at 45* if its in the way you will not have a chance...

based on this doesn't look like too much needs to come off to make all the difference



ive never had a big block these extra lumps are foreign to me

just the fun of fitting a starter designed for a 5.2 magnum to an engine designed 2 decades previous.....

But as Blue says.. Boy will it spin over well now.... it won't sound the same but that pales into insignificance

Dave

[GranSport]

Thanks for the inspiration Dave and Blue.
I'll give it another go later tonight or tomorrow without the bolt on wire extender and see how it fits.

All the best
Eddie.

[GranSport]

Thanks for the inspiration Dave and Blue.
I'll give it another go later tonight or tomorrow without the bolt on wire extender and see how it fits.

All the best
Eddie.