Resolved. - Dead in the field. Ignition module ?

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Sun May 01, 11 7:03 pm

Sun is shining. Fire her up. Vroom.
Head off down the road. 2 mins later, stop at junction (like 200 yds from home at the bottom of a VERY steep hill) and she dies.
No problem, still a bit cold, turn the key thinks I. Nothing. Dead as the proverbial dodo. cranks and cranks, but no-one is home.
I manage to drift to side of road - assume flooded, take appropriate action. Nothing. Given that I now have some time, I elect to pop the plugs and dry them out. Still nothing. Test for a spark - doesnt seem to be there...

Now I am thinking "Aw bananarama. Thats gotta be that orange box again".

Oh course, I am less than a mile from home so RAC wont drag me back... so pretty much gotta get it going. Going to have another go at debug now, but will check back in a hour or so.

Anyone localish got an ignition module I can borrow if I need it ?

Much obliged...

Adrian Worman · Post by **Adrian Worman** » Sun May 01, 11 7:11 pm

I can help, pm'd ya

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Sun May 01, 11 8:06 pm

Quick update -

Nope - couldnt fire her.
With much effort I have managed to tow it back (now THAT is a game) and much to my wifes delight I now have a beautiful lawn ornament.

Everythings connected.
Earths are all OK. She was running then suddenly 'phut'.

I have to say - I am not a fan of electronic ignition. Never had these sort of gremlins with the old twin points... This aint the first time.

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Mon May 02, 11 8:23 pm

Not spent hours on it, but have discovered that the voltage reg earth was not as great as it might have been - have fabricated a new strap to ensure it 'bites'. Car still wont fire - but then if its gone 'pop' (which I suspect) then it aint gonna.

Will get new module/reg tomorrow and see how we go.

Edit - If it does turn out to be this (again) then I have to say, it strikes me as a bit of a bummer system. Other makes seem to have these monster dizzys that contain all the electronics and coilpacks etc all in one big lump. Why dont we ? All these separate boxes that have to work in harmony and go pop periodically seem a little flawed to me... Having said that, this is actually the first time she has ever let me down 'in the field' - so I suppose thats pretty good going. I'm just sore that I dont yet know why.

sublimemike · Post by **sublimemike** » Mon May 02, 11 8:24 pm

At least the lawnmower will fit in the garage now morgan

. Sorry - feel for you - at least it's not p*ssing with rain. Hope you get it back in the garage first and fixed asap. Conking out is no fun as we all know - another challenge to sort out.

MilesnMiles · Post by **MilesnMiles** » Mon May 02, 11 9:55 pm

Moragan.
That happened to me twice. No warning, just cut out and no spark. It was the ignition module on both occassions. I kept a spare stock one in the trunk. Got me home each time.
My failures were from aftermarket modules. My original mopar one never failed

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue May 03, 11 12:07 am

This thread gives me pause about changing over to electronic ignition.

I'm just missing an electronic distributor and then I was going to switch to the FBO system. I've got the harness and voltage regulator ready to go.

Now I'm not sure if it's worth the expense and potential hassle...

Hope you get yours all sorted Morgan.

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Tue May 03, 11 6:39 am

Sorry dukerich - dont let me put you off. Most seem to run for years - there are a few threads the same as this, but most just seem to pack a spare and just go with it. IF this turns out to be problem ( and we dont know that yet) then its a 2 min roadside fix if you have the part. I hope it is the prob, otherwise I am stumped!!

Dave-R · Post by **Dave-R** » Tue May 03, 11 9:04 am

In over 30 years I have never had one fail except one brand new FBO unit which was faulty out of the box and the supplier (Neil) replaced it straight away for me.

You need to check you have no faults in any of the connections and that the charging system is up to scratch.
These systems put more of a demand on the electrical system than the points did. Because they are delivering much more power to the plug.

So if you do not know how to check voltages and connections, get someone that does to give you a hand.

Anyone that uses points needs a checkup from the neck-up.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue May 03, 11 10:20 am

Will do. Understood. No thread hyjack intended.

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Tue May 03, 11 8:49 pm

Well, got new orange box and reg today. Plugged them in. Vroom !! First crank, barely flicked the key.

So - reason for deadness - Ignition module (reg).

Reason it died - who knows. Thats the next part of the investigation.

The only reason I can see so far is that the earthing of the voltage reg wasnt spectacular - I have now on the new one sanded some paint off the back, and run a separate earthing strap to the module. This in turn straps to the engine earth cable. Is it possible a bad earth volt reg would fry the ECU ? Who knows.

Something somewhere spooked it though. I had put the original failure (FBO module) down to incorrect voltage reg and bad earth. Very surprised to lose an orange box just 1000 miles later (with new proper electronic voltage reg this time).

People seem to fall into 2 camps with these things. They either run faultlessly forever (a la Dave) or pop like light bulbs. Question is what is the common thread on the poppers...

Question - If a spike caused it (overcharging alternator etc) then why didnt the voltage reg protect the ECU ? Isnt that its job ? Where else on the loom limits charge ? Can it be fused to prevent a repeat ? Is it just as easy to replace the alternator and be done (it seems to be original unit so could warrant a refresh). Questions questions.

Opinions ?

Adrian Worman · Post by **Adrian Worman** » Tue May 03, 11 9:03 pm

Well done mate

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Tue May 03, 11 9:29 pm

sublimemike wrote:At least the lawnmower will fit in the garage now morgan . Sorry - feel for you - at least it's not p*ssing with rain. Hope you get it back in the garage first and fixed asap. Conking out is no fun as we all know - another challenge to sort out.

I found a way to avoid mowing the lawn. Just park dead Chargers on the lawn - hey presto - no need to mow...

Ade - Thanks for your offer of loan. Had I not managed to get dragged back that would have been a life saver and I appreciate it.

Dave999 · Post by **Dave999** » Tue May 03, 11 9:38 pm

OK

your alternator has coils the same as your coil does...and lots of them
wrapped round a nice chunk of spinny iron with more coils on it

its one bloody good coil... mighty...

in an old mopar with points this didn't matter

in a newer one with electronics it does

when you switch off that massive coil that is the alternator fires out a belt of leccy the wrong way and causes arcs in your ignition system.
more likely to do this in a system with a knackered battery. cos it will be running at full pelt all the time

this can bust both MSD and standard electronic

it has something to do with placement and effectivenesssss of diodes in either the alternator or the Solid state regulator you must use with electronic boxes.

HEI modules are cheaper

use with coil that doesn't need balast i.e 12 volt not 8

this would do the job

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HEI-DISTRIBUTER-I ... 2c5c685c6d

and these work good on a 4 or 6 to about 7000 rpm

so should be good to 5000 or so on an VEE 8 although not designed as such for 8 cylinder

VDubbers fav and also used by the Mk 1 escort and mini boys for rallying due to it being solid...no oil

mines has survived ten years on a mechanical regulator and original 45 amp alternator.

if you get one i'll build it into a mopar box for ya
would be plug and play then provided you swap coil and bypass that old ballast resistor by soldering a wire to each end and running it down the middle for an invisible standard looking set up

or ya FBO that broke, still got that, the rubber backing was burnt/bubbled due to over heat or arcing.. in 1 tiny place

just need to hack the rest of it out...sorry Ive been a bit leisurely..

it was/is not working
suspect the big transistor but can and will spend a bit more time on it

Dave

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Wed May 04, 11 8:38 am

Now thats interesting. The main difference here is that the car stalled - e.g. the ignition circuit was still live.

From what you say I am wondering if switching off at the ky breaks the circuit and therefore protects the ECU. Stalling the car (because I set off before she had warmed up enough) means the car dies, alternators whacks a bolt out and the ignition circuit is still active ? Sounds vaguely feasable...
In which case, a socking great diode somewhere preventing backward bolts should in theory protect. Which begs the question 'why dont they have them then?'

Further to this, If my voltage reg wasnt getting a good earth, would this be the cause of the 'whack' not finding a way to get to ground. Starting to look like it might be a combo thing. Right set of circumstances and 'pop'.

I will get the alternator tested anyway. Battery is good (I mean it can crank a big block for minutes on end. Thats pretty good to me!) but will get it tested anyway. Other than that its 'pack a spare' for a while I think.

Thanks for the info Dave. Might have another dead box for you to muck around with