Resolved. - Dead in the field. Ignition module ?

Scooby · Post by **Scooby** » Wed May 04, 11 10:23 am

Morgan. Ive payed this game a few time and heres what i discovered.

If there is a poor earth this will have an effect on the orange box...

Also this took me a couple of times b4 the penny dropped but I wonder if you had jump started or even charged the battery the orange boxes deff do not like this.
Always disconnect the battery when charging..I know most people do...

Since these discoveries mine has been ok now for a couple of years.
Also things can corrode if the motors are laid up for a while. Even if you run up the motor over the winter just to keep things moving.

And of course keeping all terminals and the famous bulkhead connection clean..

I would also recomend keeping a spare just in case.
Hope this helps.
Rich.

Dave-R · Post by **Dave-R** » Wed May 04, 11 11:00 am

Bad connections anywhere increase the current running in the system. Which heats components and heat is the biggest killer of semiconductors like the orange box.

Charging with the battery connected should not be a problem with a decent charger. But again - combined with poor connections can cause trouble.

The worst is a bad earth on the charging system or battery.

Anything will break or wear out if not operated correctly. In an electrical system that means correct voltage and resistance to maintain the designed current loads. Most Mopar owners have terrible wiring in their cars. It was designed with a life of a few years in mind. Not 40 years.

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Wed May 04, 11 12:06 pm

Its a good point. Its easy to overlook the fact this thing is 40 years old. Engine loom is brand new (year one) but the other bits (car and lighting) are the old ones.

I have sorted the earthing now for both module AND volt reg. I am going to get the alternator checked. I am going to carry a spare. Other than that - suck it and see (e.g. much road testing

)

While this thread is healthy, what about this. Anyone tried ?

Dave-R · Post by **Dave-R** » Wed May 04, 11 12:42 pm

Just take a normal Mopar electronic distributor and wire it up to one of the $25 modules (pictured below under the Mopar type box) with a 12v coil and you basically have the same thing.

Dave999 · Post by **Dave999** » Wed May 04, 11 4:24 pm

hence

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HEI-DISTRIBUTER-I ... 2c5c685c6d

and (which i acidentally missed off my previous postage)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VOLKSWAGEN-12V-IG ... 3f074660b3

will see you right

its basically a copy of either a GM dizzy or Fords (motronic??) set up

The MSD dizzys are also a ford rip off as far as i can see

OEM stuff

hence parts store parts fit

BUT its red so it must be better.........

55,000 volts of pure spark energy.........???
thats been written by the marketing department

retard/advance functionality might be fun

PS any manufacture who recons they can provide an advance curve for an engine without the engine to hand is pushing it a bit.....
the curve will be a compromise to avoid legal backlash should they get it wrong.

the ability to open up the plug gap is a function of the coil used.
the coil used dictates what kind of switch can be used to make it spark
the switch (DUI HEI Orange Points) is chosen for its current handling abilities.
the current that flows is a function of the total resistance of the coil primary circuit, the voltage across it, and the impiednce of the coil when pulsed at a specific frequency.

these modules in the DUI and in the HEI 4 pin are designed to survive the rigorous of switching currents in the 3-7 amp range
the coils you use with these modules have a primary resistance that allows a 3-7 amp current to flow when exposed to a voltage of 12 volts across the primary

the dwell stuff they chunter on about is dictated by the resistance of the coil

coil resistance is measured by the module as it changes as the coil heats up and the RPM gets higher the module shortens the dwell.

it will also shorten the dwell at very low RPM because the longest dwell it supplies will cause the coil to heat up quite quickly which increases its resistance.

coils will be advertised as 20KV 40 Kv 60 Kv coils

take that with a pinch of salt......the voltage that causes the spark reaches a maximum at the point the spark starts. if the spark starts at 16KV that's all you get on the voltage side of the equation, but you will probably get more current flow.

you can make the voltage higher by opening up the points gap but then you reduce the current and its flow time.... you give with one hand and take away with the other....

MSD stuff is different spikeing blaa hundred volts into the primary of a 12 volt coil for short bursts changes everything....

Dave

sublimemike · Post by **sublimemike** » Wed May 04, 11 10:55 pm

Like it Morgan - glad you can give it back as well as take it

Dave999 · Post by **Dave999** » Sat May 07, 11 3:09 pm

morgan wrote:In which case, a socking great diode somewhere preventing backward bolts should in theory protect. Which begs the question 'why dont they have them then?'

think they probably do...just not sure where

and if its job is to protect against some infrequent thing instead of smoothing AC-DC as part of a rectifier during normal operation how do you know when its failed?

just can't work out if they are in the regulator or its a part of the bridge in the alternator or indeed just floating around wrapped up in the loom

same isssue seems to affect aussie cars and again 2 camps...some never a problem.....

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Wed Jul 06, 11 7:14 pm

Dead as a Bananarama! dodo again.

Used her sunday. good as gold. Went to start her tonight - sparkless. Getting seriosly hacked off with this. Module #3...

Dave-R · Post by **Dave-R** » Wed Jul 06, 11 7:16 pm

That suggests to me that something else is wrong and killing the modules.

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Wed Jul 06, 11 7:35 pm

Looks that way doesnt it. (I am assuming the problem is module related at this point)

Hugely frustrating though Dave - its all new, and I am really pretty sure I did a nice job of it all.

The only bits I have not replaced are the Dizzy itself (which seems fine - was new when Brutus had it from Billadeau) and the alternator (which Dave999 suggests may be frying stuff). There isnt much else to go wrong.

I am seriously thinking of starting from scratch and just getting a new ignition system + dizzy + alternator - I feel like I am chasing a ghost here. I cant just keep frying these things - they are £50 a pop !

drewcrane · Post by **drewcrane** » Wed Jul 06, 11 8:24 pm

I feel your pain.I really do I had this issue with more old Mopars than I can remember,so I did start from scratch,piched all the stock stuff and went with an MSD and have never had an ignition issue since,

I was steaming mad like Mr clean only red

,the stock set ups like Dave says are not designed to last 40 plus years,

they will work for a while and after 2 to5 years they seem to deteriorate ,and get corroded ,and then the components that need proper voltage get hot and break down,leaving a maze of problems to try and fix ,

the MSD system uses a big box that will allow you not only to set a rev limiter, but you can also adjust the timing from inside the car very handy

I replaced the dizzy, with an MSD UNIT,and no more ballast resistor as I use an MSD coil,and it all taps in the harness using the blue wire(e body) ,and I use a one wire alternator (100 AMP TUFF STUFF),

the only other problems I have related to starting issues are due to connection failure,or a crimper connection that lost connection ,or a ground(earth)

I read alot of you guys threads and dont usually post on tech stuff I DONT REALLY KNOW THAT MUCH BUT I just wanted you to know I feel the pain............................. Good luck you will fix it one way or another

Adrian Worman · Post by **Adrian Worman** » Wed Jul 06, 11 8:54 pm

Dave wrote:That suggests to me that something else is wrong and killing the modules.

Nost definately, find this before you put new components back on Morgan or you'll be even more Bananarama! off with it

Still got a factory wiring loom? Start testing and checking everything mate, only way...............

Dave-R · Post by **Dave-R** » Wed Jul 06, 11 10:22 pm

Why don't you just fit a GM module as suggested? They are only about £20-£25 a pop. I might even have one in the garage somewhere you can have to try.

drewcrane · Post by **drewcrane** » Wed Jul 06, 11 10:46 pm

Dave wrote:Why don't you just fit a GM module as suggested? They are only about £20-£25 a pop. I might even have one in the garage somewhere you can have to try.

That is a great idea,reliable, parts are easier to find, I did it on my Duster Years ago,I even ran a Rochester Q jet on it and my Mopar brothers shook there heads ,the purists wont like it ,but I have seen people over here fed up with the old stuff and do the switch and never look back ,so what, it is a GM part on a Mopar if it works ........do it

morgan · Post by **morgan** » Thu Jul 07, 11 8:42 am

Thanks chaps. Just needed to ARRGHH last night. Drews empathy particulary touching. Thanks man

Been pondering as I lay awake and have concluded the following -

The sequence has been thus -
1 - Fitted FBO elec ignition with brand new wiring loom. New coil but crucially no new voltage reg (didnt realize they were different). This lasted a while but eventually the module went pop - this is the one that dave999 has with the clear signes of heat damage. Fitted an orange box and new regulator.

2 - Car fails again (the start of this thread). I source a new orange box and voltage reg, swap them out and vroom. Crucially, I did not restest the module seperately - So I dont actually know whether it is the module or voltage reg that cured.

3 - Car fails again (yesterday). Ah-ha ! Popped module I assume. I quickly swapped in ANOTHER new module (spare I got from Ade - brand new) and car still doesnt spark. At this point I had to go out so left it.

Point is, out of the 4 modules that fail to spark , only one is actually acknowledged as knackered. The first one, FBO. The 2 orange boxes have always been swapped in with a new regulator. The brand new generic that I tried last night didnt have a new reg, and was dead.

I am now wondering whether its the voltage reg that is being killed , NOT the modules.
This ties in nicely with Dave999 theory about the socking great bolt from the alternator (still the original alternator by the way). Last night I was at the stage of "Rip it out. Ditch it. Useless thing ARRGGHH" but thinking about it, there must be a reason.

So - heres the new plan.
1) Replace alternator as a matter of course. Its a minor expense that I would have done at some point anyway.
2) Verify the orange boxes are indeed broken.
3) Verify Voltage regs are broken.
4) Replace as appropriate (once alternator is done).

If she breaks again after this then I give up - and its bite the bullet and MSD the lot.

So - Anyone local got a car I can test the ECUs on please ? Just want to plug then in and see if they work. Today I will try source a voltage reg and alternator as a matter of course...