Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
Moderator: Moderators
Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
Hi all,
Stock 360 with aftermarket four barrel and manifold, its a 72 with a Mopar factory style electronic ignition.
What initial timing would you go for?
What was the original factory initial timing recommendation out of curiosity?
Its at 8 bttc, with the dizzy vac advance plugged.
When the car is up to temp it runs good/smooth, no worries. But smells a little rich/'fuely' all the time and there is a little black smoke.
Also when cold and on the choke its very black smokey, chucks black cr*p on the wall.
So before I play with the carb more I though I would ask about timing?
Also is it worth getting a Vac gauge to tune the carb with?
Cheers,
Stock 360 with aftermarket four barrel and manifold, its a 72 with a Mopar factory style electronic ignition.
What initial timing would you go for?
What was the original factory initial timing recommendation out of curiosity?
Its at 8 bttc, with the dizzy vac advance plugged.
When the car is up to temp it runs good/smooth, no worries. But smells a little rich/'fuely' all the time and there is a little black smoke.
Also when cold and on the choke its very black smokey, chucks black cr*p on the wall.
So before I play with the carb more I though I would ask about timing?
Also is it worth getting a Vac gauge to tune the carb with?
Cheers,
Re: Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
Get it running - around 12 degrees initial - and warm it up and strobe it to 34 degrees Total advance maximum.
Then see what you have got initial timing, hopefully around 14 - 18 degrees, if not you may have to get the welder / file out.....
Then see what you have got initial timing, hopefully around 14 - 18 degrees, if not you may have to get the welder / file out.....
Pete Wiseman; Cambridge.
Mopar by the grace of God
Mopar by the grace of God
Re: Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
Yeah get the initial timing right first before you look to set idle mixture...... it will make that job so much easier and the motor will respond quickly to your mixture changes
what it was back in the day for 4 star style leaded petrol means nuffin with the current fuel
but its likely to have been a few degrees before TDC
if you time it to total advance of 34*
there is a good chance that your initial timing will still be ball park 5- 8* as the standard curve in an original dizzy will pull in 24* or more
...hence the hints from pete
you will probably need to take about half of the movement out of the armature that the rotor arm sits on, by limiting how far the weights swing out
but you won't know how much till you try.
to get mine right
it wanted 14 BTDC initial advance
and 28 total advance any more made no difference
so i had to mess with my dizzy to limit the advance so that it only pulled in 14* at the crank
i did this by clamping the drive in a vice
putting my timing disk so it fitted over the rotor arm mounting, on the top of the dizzy casing
put a pointer (lolly stick with welding wire taped on) into the cut out section of the rotor arm mount, aligned it with 0* and twisted it
initially i could twist it 14 degrees against the springs which equates to 28 degrees of advance for the motor. (so no way could i set initial at 14)
I wanted 7 degrees twist against my timing disk
to get 14 degrees mechanical advance in my dizzy
so i could have 28 total at 3000 rpm with 14 initial at 800 rpm. 14 initial + 14 in the dizzy = 28 at 3000+
my dizzy uses 2 round posts to act as the stop for the weights its a bosch below the plate with chrysler stuff above, an aussie one basically.
i just sleeved them in brass model makers pipe and filed a bit off until i got my advance
your dizzy, if its an original mopar one, will potentially have slots which you can solder/braze or weld up or you can use a disk from FBO to act as a limiter.
its a bit of a fiddle but worthwhile
to get this done by a shop is £100+
an hours work + a load of pennies for their expertise.
this gets you 95% there. the last step is to choose the right springs... i never bothered i was quite happy
try to limit it so there is still tension on the springs so they don't fire off
it dumps in what advance it has by about 2500 rpm
and 14 * initial for my motor means no stinky tail pipe at idle.
i just need to sort the rest out now
other methods exist. you could plumb in the vacuum advance to manifold vacuum to put in advance at idle only....but i didn't want to..... the method has been explained to me by blue and the proof is sitting in morgan's engine bay (and many others) but as an awkward begger i didn't want to do it that way mainly becasue i didn't have a problem with advance anywhere else i just needed more initial
in fact my car runs ok locked at 15..not as good as it can but you know.... feels OK
Dave
what it was back in the day for 4 star style leaded petrol means nuffin with the current fuel
but its likely to have been a few degrees before TDC
if you time it to total advance of 34*
there is a good chance that your initial timing will still be ball park 5- 8* as the standard curve in an original dizzy will pull in 24* or more
...hence the hints from pete
you will probably need to take about half of the movement out of the armature that the rotor arm sits on, by limiting how far the weights swing out
but you won't know how much till you try.
to get mine right
it wanted 14 BTDC initial advance
and 28 total advance any more made no difference
so i had to mess with my dizzy to limit the advance so that it only pulled in 14* at the crank
i did this by clamping the drive in a vice
putting my timing disk so it fitted over the rotor arm mounting, on the top of the dizzy casing
put a pointer (lolly stick with welding wire taped on) into the cut out section of the rotor arm mount, aligned it with 0* and twisted it
initially i could twist it 14 degrees against the springs which equates to 28 degrees of advance for the motor. (so no way could i set initial at 14)
I wanted 7 degrees twist against my timing disk
to get 14 degrees mechanical advance in my dizzy
so i could have 28 total at 3000 rpm with 14 initial at 800 rpm. 14 initial + 14 in the dizzy = 28 at 3000+
my dizzy uses 2 round posts to act as the stop for the weights its a bosch below the plate with chrysler stuff above, an aussie one basically.
i just sleeved them in brass model makers pipe and filed a bit off until i got my advance
your dizzy, if its an original mopar one, will potentially have slots which you can solder/braze or weld up or you can use a disk from FBO to act as a limiter.
its a bit of a fiddle but worthwhile
to get this done by a shop is £100+
an hours work + a load of pennies for their expertise.
this gets you 95% there. the last step is to choose the right springs... i never bothered i was quite happy
try to limit it so there is still tension on the springs so they don't fire off
it dumps in what advance it has by about 2500 rpm
and 14 * initial for my motor means no stinky tail pipe at idle.
i just need to sort the rest out now
other methods exist. you could plumb in the vacuum advance to manifold vacuum to put in advance at idle only....but i didn't want to..... the method has been explained to me by blue and the proof is sitting in morgan's engine bay (and many others) but as an awkward begger i didn't want to do it that way mainly becasue i didn't have a problem with advance anywhere else i just needed more initial
in fact my car runs ok locked at 15..not as good as it can but you know.... feels OK
Dave
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying
Re: Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
If anyone has saved Dave Robson's excellent Timing guide we could do with making that a sticky, It disapeered ages ago.
“This ain’t no party, this ain’t no disco, this ain’t no foolin’ around”
Re: Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
Thanks Gents,
This one?
http://www.moparuk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35679
This one?
http://www.moparuk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35679
by Dave-R » Sun May 22, 11 2:21 pm
They will all smell rich until you have a lot more initial ignition timing than stock. You need to sort that out before adjusting the carb.
Even with a completely stock engine you will need at least 12 degrees initial and maybe as much as 20 degrees. If you advance the timing as the car idles, find the spot where the engine revs start to level off. That will be about the spot you want for initial.
There is only two ways to get that kind of initial without also giving the engine too much total advance at higher revs.
The first and most simple way is to use manifold vacuum for the vacuum timing on the dizzy instead of ported vacuum as stock.
The second way (which I prefer) is to limit the amount of timing in the distributor either by welding the weights in the dizzy or by fitting a plate made by FBO.
Only when you have the timing right can you start adjusting the carb. Set the idle speed to 800rpm and adjust the manifold vacuum to JUST to the lean side of max vacuum.
After that look up the tuning tips somewhere on here for tuning the jets.
Re: Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
That's probably it, thought it was longer than that. Only thing I would add is when you are finding what initial advance your engine wants, when you think you have enough turn the engine off for 10 mins then restart it, if it starts easily you've got it right, if it labours back it off 2 degrees and repeat until it turns easily and then you can limit the total to 34 degrees. Lots of initial folks, take the time to sort the timing and you'll be amazed how much better your car runs
“This ain’t no party, this ain’t no disco, this ain’t no foolin’ around”
- Dave-R
- Posts: 24751
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 04 11:23 pm
- Location: Dave Robson lives in Geordieland
- Contact:
Re: Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
The easiest way to get enough initial is to set the total mechanical advance (vacuum disconnected) to 34 degrees at 3500 rpm and then just hook the vacuum advance up to manifold vacuum off the carb instead of ported vacuum.
Most will run fine like that but at worst you might need to limit the vacuum advance which can be done by just twisting wire around the lever from the vacuum can.
Pointless trying to adjust a carb without doing the timing first.
Most will run fine like that but at worst you might need to limit the vacuum advance which can be done by just twisting wire around the lever from the vacuum can.
Pointless trying to adjust a carb without doing the timing first.
- deppmobile
- Posts: 132
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 16 4:00 pm
Re: Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
Fab info, here. Thanks!
I'll be starting up my 360 for the first time soon enough to break in the cam - as you can't mess around in that first start, how do you get an initial setting?
Thanks!
I'll be starting up my 360 for the first time soon enough to break in the cam - as you can't mess around in that first start, how do you get an initial setting?
Thanks!
Re: Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
Ok, next question... which will show my experience in this.
1. How do I measure total advance? (Marks on the timing cover go to ten only... )
Currently I have very cheap draper timing light, I assume I need a decent timing light instead?
Or
Using timing tape? - Is that a good idea?
2. What 'proper' timing light that does not break the bank would you recommend? If its a £300+ snap on one than I need an alternative at the minute...
(This work, dug up old thread from Guy: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Adjustable-a ... 53f04188e0)
3. Is this the plate? https://www.manciniracing.com/fbomodilipl.html
Thanks again gents,
1. How do I measure total advance? (Marks on the timing cover go to ten only... )
Currently I have very cheap draper timing light, I assume I need a decent timing light instead?
Or
Using timing tape? - Is that a good idea?
2. What 'proper' timing light that does not break the bank would you recommend? If its a £300+ snap on one than I need an alternative at the minute...
(This work, dug up old thread from Guy: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Adjustable-a ... 53f04188e0)
3. Is this the plate? https://www.manciniracing.com/fbomodilipl.html
Thanks again gents,
Re: Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
You need a timing light with an advance facility. Personally I've always preffered Snap On lights there are plenty for sale used on ebay. Digital are the easiet to use and are a good investment as they hold thier value. Someone will be able to suggest a cheaper alternative, Timing tape isn't very accurate and tends to come off in my experience. Yes thats the FBO limit plate, also available on ebay.
“This ain’t no party, this ain’t no disco, this ain’t no foolin’ around”
Re: Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
i got me one of these....mainly because i saw one on the cheap....
set to timing
dial in 34
and if the TDC mark lines up with 0 on the timing cover tab at 3000 rpm you have total timing of 34*
i believe the snap on is probably more robust and easier to get but similar features
does everything apart from work with multi spark systems. (if you want one that works with an MSD you need a 7 quid analogue one from china with basic electronics that can't detect the multi part of the multi spark)
had it for 10 years
they die if you drop the metal jacketed inductive pick up (same for all of them and most are plastic) but this one unplugs, you don't need a full new unit, and spares are available.
Dave
set to timing
dial in 34
and if the TDC mark lines up with 0 on the timing cover tab at 3000 rpm you have total timing of 34*
i believe the snap on is probably more robust and easier to get but similar features
does everything apart from work with multi spark systems. (if you want one that works with an MSD you need a 7 quid analogue one from china with basic electronics that can't detect the multi part of the multi spark)
had it for 10 years
they die if you drop the metal jacketed inductive pick up (same for all of them and most are plastic) but this one unplugs, you don't need a full new unit, and spares are available.
Dave
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying
Re: Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
set it to 12 BTDCdeppmobile wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 19 7:35 pm Fab info, here. Thanks!
I'll be starting up my 360 for the first time soon enough to break in the cam - as you can't mess around in that first start, how do you get an initial setting?
Thanks!
if electronic make sure rotor is nominally at lead 1 and the inductor lobe is bang on the middle of the pick up
start.
this gives initial timing of somewhere between 10 and 14 BTDC
if points
gap them correctly with brass feeler
put bulb in the wire from points, or connect bulb from coil - to the engine block, switch on ignition move dizzy to have rotor pointed at lead 1 then jig it back and forth to find the switch on/off point for the bulb.
this should be bang on 12 BTDC initial
start car
bring revs to 2500+ on throttle stop check timing advance goes no more than 34* adjust if necessary
The Greater Knapweed near the Mugwort by the Buckthorn tree is dying
- deppmobile
- Posts: 132
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 16 4:00 pm
Re: Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
Perfect!
Thanks
Thanks
Re: Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
This brings it all back to me when I first got my car. I had the same great advice and Daves thread should be etched in stone, its great.
I bought a Snap On timing light from a pawn shop in Milwaukee (online and cheap) and its been a great investment. It also has a tach on it which is accurate and great for checking RPM when the timing hits total advance. Half inch spanner, light and a hill to do hill starts on was a good way for me to learn about this (you don't actually need the light to start with as a bit of experimenting on the road was surprisingly productive in my case).
I tried tape etc but you cant beat a good light that you can dial in the degrees. Once the penny dropped regarding the difference between initial and total timing, why you need more advance at higher RPM and how the transition between the two works, all the advice made perfect sense. Its very interesting stuff and its amazing how few people who own old cars actually know even the basics of timing. As soon as you mention it at car shows etc, most people either glaze over or walk away. A good indication for me is if they have a firm handshake and dirty nails, they know all about timing!
The FBO plates are very good quality and easy to fit.
Cheers Steve
I bought a Snap On timing light from a pawn shop in Milwaukee (online and cheap) and its been a great investment. It also has a tach on it which is accurate and great for checking RPM when the timing hits total advance. Half inch spanner, light and a hill to do hill starts on was a good way for me to learn about this (you don't actually need the light to start with as a bit of experimenting on the road was surprisingly productive in my case).
I tried tape etc but you cant beat a good light that you can dial in the degrees. Once the penny dropped regarding the difference between initial and total timing, why you need more advance at higher RPM and how the transition between the two works, all the advice made perfect sense. Its very interesting stuff and its amazing how few people who own old cars actually know even the basics of timing. As soon as you mention it at car shows etc, most people either glaze over or walk away. A good indication for me is if they have a firm handshake and dirty nails, they know all about timing!
The FBO plates are very good quality and easy to fit.
Cheers Steve
Bat Girl Stalker Living Petes Dream
Re: Another boring one.... 360 Timing?
fear not
it's all here
i'd saved the links a long while ago and i'm happy to regurgitate as and when necessary ...
Dave’s laws ...
ignition ...
https://web.archive.org/web/20160214201 ... f=13&t=828
carb ...
https://web.archive.org/web/20160214202 ... =11&t=5308
loads on here about timing ...
http://www.moparuk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=45873
http://www.moparuk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35148
http://www.moparuk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35679
my recent timing exploits ...
http://www.moparuk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=46913
and some more of the same ...
http://www.moparuk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=46806
it's all here
i'd saved the links a long while ago and i'm happy to regurgitate as and when necessary ...
Dave’s laws ...
ignition ...
https://web.archive.org/web/20160214201 ... f=13&t=828
carb ...
https://web.archive.org/web/20160214202 ... =11&t=5308
loads on here about timing ...
http://www.moparuk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=45873
http://www.moparuk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35148
http://www.moparuk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35679
my recent timing exploits ...
http://www.moparuk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=46913
and some more of the same ...
http://www.moparuk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=46806
Si
1970 Charger 500
383 | 4bbl | 727 column | PAS | PAB | buckets/buddy - check out my photos HERE
If you don't want another same old brand-new car ... you could be DODGE MATERIAL
1970 Dodge Charger Registry - https://www.1970chargerregistry.com/
1970 Charger 500
383 | 4bbl | 727 column | PAS | PAB | buckets/buddy - check out my photos HERE
If you don't want another same old brand-new car ... you could be DODGE MATERIAL
1970 Dodge Charger Registry - https://www.1970chargerregistry.com/